Three Minute Bouts?

**135711** · 08-11-2002 05:26 PM

I read about the three minute bout. I think it's too short. At the Olympic level, with less competitors involved, it would be possible to fence a better bout for a longer period of time. I was thinking about 7 minutes.

**Gav** · 08-11-2002 05:48 PM

135711: Are you reffering to the pool rounds? The 3 minute bouts are already in force in the UK. It's not a problem as most bouts only last a minute or 2 anyway. 7 minute bouts for the pool rounds are too long and would delay the DE resulting in longer tourneys [and they're long enough].

**counter riposte** · 08-12-2002 11:20 AM

Yes, Please elaborate...

**HilandDoug** · 08-12-2002 11:52 AM

Considering that the clock only runs between "Fence!" and "Halt!", 3 minutes is plenty of time. It would be interesting to hear from fellow fencing.net posters who have actually had time expire during a bout, and hear their explanations as to why.

Heck, watching the guys from Renaissance Fencing Club fence sabre, I would bet their pool bouts are less than 2 minutes clock time!

**scarlet_woman156k** · 08-12-2002 01:17 PM

I've had a healthy number of NAC pool bouts run out. Typically it's been 4:4, so you get the coin toss. Just like to be patient.

The three minutes should make things interesting for epee I think. I have a bit tougher time in pools than in DEs because of those four minutes (doesn't allow me to get inside my opponent's mind and shake things up like those 15 minutes), so cutting down 1/4 of the time will definitely make things a lot more funky. No room for mistakes!

**MHS Fencer** · 08-12-2002 01:18 PM

I've fenced with the three minute clock, and I have to say that I like it. I'm an epeeist, and I've had bouts that have gone to time with and without the new time limit. The time limit just adds another dimension, it makes you and your opponent not be careless about time. It becomes a much more useful tool to play against, another strategy to use (or rather it makes the strategy easier to use).

I can see that some people wouldn't like it as an added aspect of the game, but it's already there, and just hasn't come into play as often. Generally speaking, if you're going to go to 5 touches, it's going to be done in less than 3 minutes.

At least that's the way that i see it (Only 1/18 bouts went to time w/ the 3 minute limit, or maybe 1/12)

**Sciurus Rex** · 08-12-2002 03:22 PM

In one of my most recent DE bouts, the score was 4-1 at the end of the first period. I brought up my end of it to close at 4-3 second period. The score was still 4-3 at the end of the third period. -- my loss.
I'm a C-epeeist; he's a B. (shrug) Assume what you will. Sure was interesting and fun, though.

**swordsen** · 08-12-2002 04:25 PM

I remember when 5 touch bouts were 5 minutes. I kind of liked them but 4 was ok. 3 seems a bit rushed to me. But then, they don't really care what I (or anyone else out here) thinks about it. This will make it more "TV Friendly". sigh....

**edew** · 08-12-2002 04:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sciurus Rex:
In one of my most recent DE bouts, the score was 4-1 at the end of the first period. I brought up my end of it to close at 4-3 second period. The score was still 4-3 at the end of the third period. -- my loss.
I'm a C-epeeist; he's a B. (shrug) Assume what you will. Sure was interesting and fun, though.<hr /></blockquote>During the whole third period, you didn't attack once? I can see why you're a C-epeeist. If you're behind, there's no loss to attack. It doesn't matter if he beats you 15-3 or 4-3, you're still out of the running.

**135711** · 08-12-2002 05:15 PM

okay, without the name calling..... whatever the rating or experience, i thought of it as being a more interesting experience. more enriching and fulfulling as a fencer one wants to make the most of their tactical skill, put some thought into their bout. i am aware of the stop watch thing, and how we all stop the clock after a touch and start it again after the bout commences. having a longer bout could take the place of that reparcharge thing, that i could never figure out, is it new? we have de's what's the re-charge thing all about.

**Shadow Fencer** · 08-12-2002 07:55 PM

I've only had one bout experience with the 3 minute limit. My opponent and I were at 4-4. She got priority. I got nervous and executed an attack that was short. She countered. I lost.
Oh well. Some days you win, some days you lose!

**Inquartata** · 08-12-2002 08:15 PM

"What's a three-minute bout?", asked the
sabre-fencer quizically... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**Sciurus Rex** · 08-12-2002 08:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by edew:
During the whole third period, you didn't attack once? I can see why you're a C-epeeist. If you're behind, there's no loss to attack. It doesn't matter if he beats you 15-3 or 4-3, you're still out of the running.<hr /></blockquote>Weren't there, were ya, genius?
When I suggested in my original post, "Assume what you will," I didn't necessarily imply that your brilliant assumptions were worth posting.

"Didn't attack," indeed ... Sheesh.

Someone else wanna explain to Edew why it's not necessarily a good thing to throw away a wild touch? How it *might* be a teensy bit tougher to catch up two points than it was just one behind? How setting up a second or third intention is more satisfying than madly charging forward just because your almost out of time?
Anyone?
Nevermind.

[ 08-12-2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Sciurus Rex ]

**135711** · 08-13-2002 03:35 PM

edew was a bit rough, be he's a foilist, therefore, you must spare him. carry on epeeist. [we were talking about foil, but it's okay to intertwine your epee thoughts, we'll arrive at a consensus somewhere along the line]

[ 08-13-2002, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: 135711 ]

**swordsen** · 08-13-2002 04:08 PM

Well, I am an epeeist and I wasn't there. But I will say that If you are behind when you hit the last minute or so it is time to start taking some chances. Continuing to to what hasn't been scoring points will probably not start scoring them now. I can see no good reason for playing it safe at that stage of the game.

**edew** · 08-13-2002 04:16 PM

The only valid reason to not go balls out on the last period is that you didn't how much time is left and you let the time elapse. That's the mark of a foil fencer fencing epee. An epee fencer better know exactly how much time is left.

As I remarked once, I was refereeing Elaine Cheris in the quarter finals at the NAC in Palm Springs last year. She asked me how much time remained. I told her fifteen seconds. I said "fence" and fifteen seconds later, she took off her mask, so I looked at the clock. Yup. Fifteen seconds just passed.

If you're an epee fencer and you're behind in the last period. There is absolutely no reason not to go make some attempts. You're not throwing away anything. You're trying to at least tie the score. Your opponent, of course, ain't going to do anything. If he can win without having to engage in battle, he will, and his tactic was the right one.

**epeemike81** · 08-13-2002 04:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by edew:
The only valid reason to not go balls out on the last period is that you didn't how much time is left and you let the time elapse. That's the mark of a foil fencer fencing epee. An epee fencer better know exactly how much time is left.

As I remarked once, I was refereeing Elaine Cheris in the quarter finals at the NAC in Palm Springs last year. She asked me how much time remained. I told her fifteen seconds. I said "fence" and fifteen seconds later, she took off her mask, so I looked at the clock. Yup. Fifteen seconds just passed.

If you're an epee fencer and you're behind in the last period. There is absolutely no reason not to go make some attempts. You're not throwing away anything. You're trying to at least tie the score. Your opponent, of course, ain't going to do anything. If he can win without having to engage in battle, he will, and his tactic was the right one.<hr /></blockquote>Eric,

picture this: you are down 4-3. all of your opponents touches have come when you attack. all 3 of yours have come on defense....

it is, thus, perfectly reasonable to spend, say, 2:30 or 2:45 of your last 3 minutes trying to bait your opponent.... thus, you have quite possibly not had a halt yet. not even an epeeist is that accurate over 3 minutes. 15 seconds is one thing.....it is quite easy to let that last 15 seconds get away, even for an epeeist.

and as for the "mark of a foil fencer fencing epee," remind me again: what is YOUR primary weapon?

And about your story about Elaine, oiuyt wanted me to make sure that you at least carded her for removing her mask before the halt.

-m

[ 08-13-2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: epeemike81 ]

**epeemike81** · 08-13-2002 04:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
Continuing to to what hasn't been scoring points will probably not start scoring them now.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly!!!

which means, if attacking hasn't been scoring points and has been allowing them, that is probably not going to change now. the key is staying calm and setting up, not going nuts and rushing in. thus, Sciurus could have done EVERYTHING right, and still had no change in score.

-m

-m

**edew** · 08-13-2002 05:15 PM

Not seeing another solution, apparently. Maybe you shouldn't attack in the same way as you did before. Maybe you need to do some second-intention, some fake attack, remise, some other action to get the touch. Standing around to wait for the time to elapse just doesn't sound like the right thing to do.

As for Elaine, she lifted her mask when the clock hit zero. Not before.

**epeemike81** · 08-13-2002 05:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by edew:
Not seeing another solution, apparently. Maybe you shouldn't attack in the same way as you did before. Maybe you need to do some second-intention, some fake attack, remise, some other action to get the touch. Standing around to wait for the time to elapse just doesn't sound like the right thing to do.<hr /></blockquote>who said he was "just standing around"?? Attacking for the sake of "taking chances" is stupid. if he WAS just standing around, you are correct that he should have tried SOMETHING. however, my point is that he very well may have been attempting to manipulate his opponent and still not had any touches either way. your suggestion that losing 4-3 is as bad as losing 15-3 is NOT correct. if you allow those 11 touches, you were NOT thinking, but rather taking chances to see if you can get lucky for a touch.... if you are thinking, you have a better chance.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As for Elaine, she lifted her mask when the clock hit zero. Not before.<hr /></blockquote>ah, but the card is for how dangerous it is to remove your mask before a halt is called. this is one of the very few times when it actually matters when the halt was called.

-m

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