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Gav · 08-13-2002, 06:26 PM

Standing around doing nothing and just letting the time run out is stupidly counterproductive - hence this new passivity rule.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It doesn't matter if he beats you 15-3 or 4-3, you're still out of the running. <hr /></blockquote>True.

It does, however, have a different meaning whether you are the winner or not. It doesn't matter if you WIN 15-3 or 4-3 - you still win. The same applies to the loser [you are still out] with the caveat that if you lose 4-3 there's a good chance your opponent edged it in some small way that may not have been apparent. To lose 15-3 shows that you have either been totally outclassed (see the '10 way s to know that your opponent is better than you' thread) or have failed to adapt to the situation on piste. For the loser all that's left is the post match analysis...

edew · 08-13-2002, 06:29 PM

My implication is that you try something, and hopefully, something smart. Of course, it could still end up with no touches scored.

As for Elaine's situation, neither fencer were close to each other. She basically stopped at the end of the time, and by the time she took off her mask, the time has been expired for probably half to one second (can't tell, I used the ScorePad PalmOS app).

Gav · 08-13-2002, 06:42 PM

She still shouldn't have removed her mask till the halt - no matter how good her sense of time is.

Inquartata · 08-13-2002, 07:41 PM

Even after a halt, aren't you supposed to have the director's permission to remove your mask? Or was that rule done away with?

epeemike81 · 08-13-2002, 08:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by edew:
My implication is that you try something, and hopefully, something smart. Of course, it could still end up with no touches scored.<hr /></blockquote>agreed.

then my implication is that you came off rather harshly toward Sciurus, and seem to assume that he DIDN'T try something, when that is not necessarily the case.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As for Elaine's situation, neither fencer were close to each other. She basically stopped at the end of the time, and by the time she took off her mask, the time has been expired for probably half to one second (can't tell, I used the ScorePad PalmOS app).<hr /></blockquote>doesn't matter how close they were. It matters even less how long ago time expired. YOU CANNOT REMOVE YOUR MASK UNTIL HALT IS CALLED. this rule is there for safety and is a good policy. Thus, it should be applied to dispell her of this bad habit, even if you don't think it is dangerous in this particular case.

-m

Sciurus Rex · 08-13-2002, 08:45 PM

EpeeMike81, I think you're being overly harsh with Edew. I mean, sure, he wasn't there, and there's no way that he could possibly know exactly what I did or how my opponent changed his tactics as we fenced. And, yeah, I don't remember anyone actually asking him to critique my *very* short recap of the bout, or to make snide comments about how I deserve nothing better than a C. His comments might seem rude, shortsighted, unnecessary or simply mean-spirited to most people, but Edew exists on a much higher plane than mere mortals. He knows everything and is obviously blessed by the fencing gawds in ways we will never understand. Edew's opinion, although not sought, should be cherished and studied.

My life has been enriched in strange, wondrous ways by his insightful comments on this thread alone. And if you think about it, I'm sure you'll realize yours has been, too.

edew · 08-13-2002, 10:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sciurus Rex:
EpeeMike81, I think you're being overly harsh with Edew. I mean, sure, he wasn't there, and there's no way that he could possibly know exactly what I did or how my opponent changed his tactics as we fenced. And, yeah, I don't remember anyone actually asking him to critique my *very* short recap of the bout, or to make snide comments about how I deserve nothing better than a C. His comments might seem rude, shortsighted, unnecessary or simply mean-spirited to most people, but Edew exists on a much higher plane than mere mortals. He knows everything and is obviously blessed by the fencing gawds in ways we will never understand. Edew's opinion, although not sought, should be cherished and studied.

My life has been enriched in strange, wondrous ways by his insightful comments on this thread alone. And if you think about it, I'm sure you'll realize yours has been, too.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks, it's time I get the acknowledgement as deserved.

achilleus · 08-14-2002, 02:22 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeemike81:
[quote]who said he was "just standing around"?? Attacking for the sake of "taking chances" is stupid. if he WAS just standing around, you are correct that he should have tried SOMETHING. however, my point is that he very well may have been attempting to manipulate his opponent and still not had any touches either way. your suggestion that losing 4-3 is as bad as losing 15-3 is NOT correct. if you allow those 11 touches, you were NOT thinking, but rather taking chances to see if you can get lucky for a touch.... if you are thinking, you have a better chance.
-m<hr /></blockquote>I don't know if our friend attempted anything when down, I wasn't there, and he hasn't said anything, but I disagree with what the score implies. The competitive fencers would make something happen, even if it was a double or single light against them, they would take their chance. After all, brains are great, but when you are down, and time is running out, you've got nothing to lose on taking a chance. Think about if he took a chance then, at least he might've scored.

Maybe he did take a chance and no touch resulted, we can only wonder.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-14-2002, 07:38 AM

I remember watching the team epee championship from 1999. Germany was down against France when the last bout begin. Schmitt from Germany must have fenced 20-25 straight point which were pure hail marry. I can't remember the score, but Germany still lost but no one can deny that Scmitt didn't give it his best considering the situation.

I've fenced 6 DE bouts in the meager 3 tournaments I've entered, and both times I've met a particular fencer in the DE's, we've ran out of time. Once in Foil (I lost 9-14) and once in Epee (I won 14-10) . Considering that in Epee I was ahead, its hard for me to say what my opponent should have done, but I think what he didn't do was correct in the situation. He knew that most of his touches came from when I attacked, and that I generally got him when he attacked. Therefore, there wasn't much he could do when we had about 15 seconds at 10-14. He knew that although it was unlikely I would take the initiative, I would be ready for anything that he had done thus far in the bout. Still, there isn't much to be done but just be as unpredictable as can be and hope that he chokes.

[ 08-14-2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: D'Artagnan1673 ]

Peach · 08-14-2002, 09:15 AM

It's "Hail Mary," as in the prayer. Sorry, the teacher in my subconscious appears to be stirring from slumber with the approach of the school year.

epeemike81 · 08-14-2002, 10:07 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I remember watching the team epee championship from 1999. Germany was down against France when the last bout begin. Schmitt from Germany must have fenced 20-25 straight point which were pure hail marry. I can't remember the score, but Germany still lost but no one can deny that Scmitt didn't give it his best considering the situation.<hr /></blockquote>hail mary in what sense? I would guarentee that he set those shots up. if he didn't, he wouldn't have landed. Thinking and setting your opponent up is the key when down. when you see the opening, maybe you make a more daring attack, a fleche instead of lunge, but you still have to wait til you see the opening (i.e. have created the opening).

a score of 11-0 in the last period (i.e. going from 4-3 to 15-3) shows that the fencer lost his composure and WAS doing pure hail marys, without good thought. more to the point, in your example, the Germans had to make up 20-25 touches in 3 min. according to your post. Sciurus had to land 1 in 3 min. clearly a VERY different situation.

-m

Sciurus Rex · 08-14-2002, 11:53 AM

(shrug) All this does is show the difference in fencers' attitudes toward scoring individual points, and how quickly some are to jump to conclusions when given very brief information. Very interesting.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-14-2002, 01:28 PM

Well, I only watched the competition once, but as I remember it, there was neither thought nor deliberation in any of those touches. Most of the touches we two lights. Also, my example was not meant to directly correlate to Scurious' situation.

edew · 08-14-2002, 05:24 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Well, I only watched the competition once, but as I remember it, there was neither thought nor deliberation in any of those touches. Most of the touches we two lights. Also, my example was not meant to directly correlate to Scurious' situation.<hr /></blockquote>Interesting...first off, I think you meant 1989, as Arnd Schmitt hasn't fenced much since early 1990s. I believe he's completely retired now.

In any case, the fact that it appeared to you that there was neither deliberation nor thought is an indicator of their ability to hide their intentions. Men's epee is probably the most developed in terms of a mental game, compared to foil or sabre. There's lots of jockeying for mental positions. The fencers are basically trying to out stare the other. In that case, what you see may look like complete flakiness, but in reality, there's layers upon layers of mini counter-moves with every twitch of the body.

Of course, then you get someone like Meelis from Estonia doing his statue impression...

veeco · 08-14-2002, 10:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by edew:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Well, I only watched the competition once, but as I remember it, there was neither thought nor deliberation in any of those touches. Most of the touches we two lights. Also, my example was not meant to directly correlate to Scurious' situation.<hr /></blockquote>Interesting...first off, I think you meant 1989, as Arnd Schmitt hasn't fenced much since early 1990s. I believe he's completely retired now.

In any case, the fact that it appeared to you that there was neither deliberation nor thought is an indicator of their ability to hide their intentions. Men's epee is probably the most developed in terms of a mental game, compared to foil or sabre. There's lots of jockeying for mental positions. The fencers are basically trying to out stare the other. In that case, what you see may look like complete flakiness, but in reality, there's layers upon layers of mini counter-moves with every twitch of the body.

Of course, then you get someone like Meelis from Estonia doing his statue impression...<hr /></blockquote>No, D'Art is right. Arndt and Eric went at it in the final bout of the 1999 WC in Seoul. That was the last WC that Schmitt competed in, I believe. I have the tape from Fencing Footage and here's the link with the description.

<a href="http://www.fencingfootage.com/wch_11.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fencingfootage.com/wch_11.htm</a>

Now, as far as whether Schmitt's touches were hail marys or not, I don't know. There definitely was a lot of doubles, and it's clear when you watch it that Germany needs to overcome a lot of touches. Even without knowing the score.

What Schmitt and Srecki do is pretty amazing stuff for an epee bout. They probably score like 40 touches in under 3 minutes.

A lot of times, Schmitt goes for a double, and then tries to get Srecki into a pattern, kinda like simultaneous in sabre. At that point, doubles don't count too much because they start the last bout at like 25-20. So Schmitt tries to do a double, and then on the next touch, he tries to get Srecki to react the same way that he did in the previous one and get him on a second intention. (Hint for those who say that you cannot attack if your touches were all scored on the defence previously).

It's actually a fairly common situation in epee fencing. You have 2 fencers who are much more able when defending, so they score more touches on the defence (or when the other guy is attacking). At the last period, someone is bound to be ahead.

That's when you need to be able to pull 2nd intention tricks, and that's what differenciates "C" fencers to "A" fencers. I believe that's what Edew meant in his "harsh" response. But then again, I know Edew, so I can kinda guess what he means when I see his posts online.

But a lot of people have stopped trying to understand how he thinks anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

edew · 08-15-2002, 12:49 AM

Which is always good in fencing...

135711 · 08-15-2002, 04:50 PM

this was an interesting discussion. i want to thank you for the input. if i get back to fencing anytime soon [not at least for another 3 months, i can't stand it], i'll remember to take better note of the clock. i see you're point, epee is much more clock friendly, foil is less. interestingly, today just before clicking on, i ran my longest run in quite some time, in a very good amount of time. my running is improving. i hate like heck to relocate the running is so good here, but i miss fencing too much. my friends sons have recently relocated to san francisco, maybe they can use a good secretary, one that fences. i'll find out. in the meanwhile, thanks again.

swordsen · 08-17-2002, 11:58 AM

Having looked at the pool results for the Women's epee it would seem the three minute rule is shortening quite a few bouts. there were a lot more than usual victories with less than 5 points. I wonder how much passivity is being called? I noted several 1-0 bouts.

veeco · 08-17-2002, 06:01 PM

Yeah, maybe now women's epee pool rounds don't last 2 hours more than the other pool rounds...

135711 · 08-19-2002, 03:06 PM

i don't follow in this, i'm not a tactican, so, tacticians, take it away! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />