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135711 · 08-10-2002, 09:16 PM

I've felt that there are instances in which a fencer can expose his back to the opponent. Why this rule?

craban · 08-10-2002, 10:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
I've felt that there are instances in which a fencer can expose his back to the opponent. Why this rule?<hr /></blockquote>Since I just had this happen tonight - I am compelled to repeat what my instructor told me ages ago, (and I don't think it's in the rulebook): "Turning your back on an opponent is not only foolish, (he is armed and you can't see him), but insulting, (you are effectively saying 'even though you have a weapon and I can't see you, you are not a threat to me')."

Rules? I don't know - tournaments allow you to do all sorts of things that you shouldn't normally do, you're there to win, after all, not be nice.

But the spirit of the 'martial art of fencing' demands you pay your opponent some respect and not being insulting is a start.

That being said I realize I am in the minority of thought there, ("spirit" vs "letter" of rules, etc), and you can feel free to ignore me in favor of finding some rule that will allow you to turn around and face the other direction during a bout - just remember that the back is target area, (unless the USFA has tossed that too), and I will stab you in the back if you're goofy enough to offer it....

neevel · 08-11-2002, 09:32 AM

In addition to the notion of turning the back being a foolish thing to do in a real duel, there's
also the matter that the back of the mask is open, so a blade could injure the back of the
head & neck, or else slide around the side of the mask and injure the face. The turning
back rule applies to all three weapons, not just foil and sabre (t.21 is the relevant
paragraph in the rules). It's simple (no jostling) corps-a-corps that applies to foil and sabre
but not epee.

-Dave

[ 08-11-2002, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: neevel ]

MikeHarm · 08-11-2002, 11:21 AM

I don't think turning your body to do a taking of the blade that would run your opponent through would be disrespectful. It might add some more flashy hotdog sort of moves as well as bring back some older classical ones.

I could see getting tangled up with the non-wireless system if you turned about, but with fencing heading in the direction of being wireless I think that issue is going to go away in the long run.

The masks being open in back seems like a bad idea to me with people in tourneys regularly making attacks to the back with flicks and such. Now that we're redesigning the masks for the lexan why not correct that oversight?

swordsen · 08-11-2002, 12:28 PM

Oh god no..... Next thing you know they'll have in motorcycle helmets or something.

AndrewH · 08-11-2002, 02:18 PM

I remember my coach explaining something about the whole back turning thing. He said it had to do with the Italians, who would parry then turn around and riposte at leg level on the side opposite the director- and often hit their own leg in the process, making it look like a valid touch. Anyone else have knowledge/clarification of this?

epeemike81 · 08-11-2002, 03:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AndrewH:
I remember my coach explaining something about the whole back turning thing. He said it had to do with the Italians, who would parry then turn around and riposte at leg level on the side opposite the director- and often hit their own leg in the process, making it look like a valid touch. Anyone else have knowledge/clarification of this?<hr /></blockquote>russians. not italians. btw, the most interesting thing about this is that they got caught when they were practicing it, not in competition.....

thats what they get for practicing illegal moves RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE BOUT COMMITTEE!!!!!!

-m

Gav · 08-11-2002, 03:40 PM

I've never heard any of this. Rather I heard that the turning rules were introduced as a safety measure. After all people were flicking over each others shouldes, if you expose the back of your head...

I've never heard anything about anyone, russian or italian, actually practising an illegal move. Sounds suspicously like an urban [fencing] myth.

AndrewH · 08-11-2002, 05:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've never heard anything about anyone, russian or italian, actually practising an illegal move. Sounds suspicously like an urban [fencing] myth.
<hr /></blockquote>Illegal moves abound, for example at Nationals the director explained that we have to put the lame clip on the weapon side because (insert nationality) was prone to "accidently" pulling them out with the non-weapon hand as they lunged, invalidating a counterattack.

[ 08-11-2002, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: AndrewH ]

135711 · 08-11-2002, 05:24 PM

i've heard about that, where the italian guy would plunge headlong so quickly, that he would unclip his clip, and get a touch.
but anyway, what i meant, was, it seems that in sport fencing at a more athletic level, twisting in such a way as to expose your back doesn't seem like such a big deal. i'm not really a fan of that 'insulting' thing, it's sort of archaic.

Gav · 08-11-2002, 05:41 PM

I know that individuals of any nationality will attempt to cheat. What I meant was particular nationalities practice a particular move. For example...

[insert Natioanlity] Coach, "Now if your opponent does this [insert move] then do this [insert illegal action (ie kick, punch, poke]".

We've all heard of the infamous 'russian button'.

JEC · 08-11-2002, 09:13 PM

Hi, Andrew. I also was there when .... ...... discussed the placement of the clip in back on the side of the weapon arm to prevent "the disconnecting lame clip trick" of certain ....... foil fencer.

[ 08-12-2002, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: JEC ]

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-11-2002, 09:18 PM

I know that this is trivial, but I thought it was the Germans who were the ones that liked to turn their back.

AndrewH · 08-11-2002, 09:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JEC:
Hi, Andrew. I also was there when .... ...... discussed the placement of the clip in back on the side of the weapon arm to prevent "the disconnecting lame clip trick" of certain ....... foil fencer.<hr /></blockquote>Unless you were in my pool at DV3 MS at Nats, you wouldnt have gotten the same speech. I'm sure most refs brought it up though in foil & saber. If you were in my pool, wasn't that director terrible? lol, i thought directors at National events had to know what they're doing... or at least know how to call a preparation and point in line.

Mo · 08-11-2002, 11:02 PM

At a meet recently, before SC, one of the kids on the team called an opponent for his gauntlet being folded so it did not touch his jacket in saber.
When the gauntlet tucker was called on it, his reply to this kid was, "you are the only one so far who as been smart enough to check it."

achilleus · 08-12-2002, 12:48 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I know that this is trivial, but I thought it was the Germans who were the ones that liked to turn their back.<hr /></blockquote>No, the Germans love to have blades that huge bends, and they also parry with their off-hands. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

epeemike81 · 08-12-2002, 06:04 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gav:
I know that individuals of any nationality will attempt to cheat. What I meant was particular nationalities practice a particular move. For example...

[insert Natioanlity] Coach, "Now if your opponent does this [insert move] then do this [insert illegal action (ie kick, punch, poke]".

We've all heard of the infamous 'russian button'.<hr /></blockquote>There have definitely been instances of entire national teams cheating....

for example, a while back a fencer at an epee world cup got a light in an impossible circumstance (between touches, point not near the floor or anything).... Armorer looked at the weapons, which had custom leather french grips, and couldn't find anything wrong, so confiscated and used next weapon. odds are, they wouldn't have found anything, but one of his teammates grabbed the weapon and took off at a sprint. turned out there was a button built into the grip (VERY well hidden). As you can see from the story, his teammates were aware of the cheating, as was, I'm sure, the national armorer. Speculation is, in fact, that he triggered it on purpose to get to his secondary weapon, as he didn't want to cheat but was told by his team "you WILL use this weapon".

-m

epeemike81 · 08-12-2002, 06:05 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I know that this is trivial, but I thought it was the Germans who were the ones that liked to turn their back.<hr /></blockquote>nah, it was the Russians....

now you might be thinking about a while back when the German womens epee team (East German, I think....) used to do toe touches lifting their legs higher than normal and would kick their point with their own toe and THEN land on their opponents....

-m

epeefencer74 · 08-12-2002, 07:54 PM

I've always thought that the turning of back rule was a saftey issue. With the maske being open back turning will expose this unprotected portion and thus be a danger to the fencer turning. I had always assumed that this rule was to protect fencers that don't have sense enough to protect themselves.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-13-2002, 06:05 AM

Hey now, I've been carded for turning my back before. Its something that can happen to anyone.

Let me explain mine. I have a problem going off the strip in competition because the legnth of my club is shorter than regulation fencing pistes. Therefore, in those times that I should have had the opportunity to work on avoiding going off the strip, I've simply found myself with my back literally to the wall parrying like a madman. Therefore, when I come to the edge, I don't know what to do. In this particular instance, I was carded because I turned my head to see how far I had before I went off the strip.