12-27-2005, 06:48 PM
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#1 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lithuania
Posts: 13
| Help: russian terminology
I'm writing article on fencing terminology and i faced with one problem: does anyone know why russians named foil as rapira (рапира). I mean why the root of this word is similar to 'rapier' rather than to 'foil', 'florete' or 'fioreto'.
And sorry for my English  | 
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12-27-2005, 07:11 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 294
| Heh..... Russian is my first language.. but I have no idea why it is so..... Maybe cuz it sounds a lot more Russian than anything decsending from the word fleuret? Sounds a bit too bourgouis-ish (sp?) for a post-revolutionary Russia, when the sport started developing, unlike words shpaga (epee) and sablya (sabre), which, although derived from foreign languages have typical russian endings for feminine gender and are used in other slavic languages (i.e. polish). Another guess is that the word Rapira entered Russian language through translations of Shakespeare ( I can recall this word being used in Russian versions of Hamlet and Romeo and Juliette). But that is nothing but a guess..... A far out guess... I guess.. lol
Where is the Old Man Needle when you need him?  | |
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12-27-2005, 08:44 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 218
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Mario_Pegrini I'm writing article on fencing terminology and i faced with one problem: does anyone know why russians named foil as rapira (рапира). I mean why the root of this word is similar to 'rapier' rather than to 'foil', 'florete' or 'fioreto'.
And sorry for my English | Mario,
My guess (this is just a guess on my part) is that the word rapier is used
to indicate the real origin of the foil. The "Foil" as far as I know is a derivative
of a weapon called the "Small Sword". The "Small Sword" itself was a
lighter version of "Rapier".
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"On the watch, sir. Always on the watch. They don't all fight like fine gentlemen!"
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12-29-2005, 11:00 PM
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#4 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,177
| That wouldn't explain the name for epee, though.
Anybody have a good resource for fencing terms in Russian, anyway? | |
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01-03-2006, 04:36 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 294
| The best source of Russian fencing terminology is a good old Soviet Coach. So ya I suppose I got one. | |
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01-03-2006, 05:58 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 164
| If struggling, send your question to info@nellyafencers.com. We have enough fencing russians here. | |
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01-03-2006, 06:43 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: right here, on your screen
Posts: 1,670
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Originally Posted by Lemberg Where is the Old Man Needle when you need him? | Where could I be the night of 25th through 2nd? ...
Now, that I'm mostly sober again, let's see...
There are probably people who know more on the subject - please correct my 5 cents where you see appropriate:
In historical Russian fencing terminology the word рапира (rapira) was hardly ever used. English terms like rapier (and different variations of rapiers) and smallsword were translated using variations of the word шпага (shpaga) - шпага, бугельная шпага, шпага-дворянка, etc. The only books where I have seen the word "rapira" used were late 19th century books that mentioned fencing training and the word was used for blunted training versions of шпага-дворянка (shpaga-dvoryanka) - smallsword. How and why that word was picked from obscurity instead of adopting french term - I have no idea. I believe that epee was translated as shpaga very naturally. And saber - сабля (sablya) was also quite natural.
But the fact that rapier and epee both correspond to shpaga and foil corresponds to rapira gives translators a lot of headaches.
Mario, you are definitely not the only one facing this problem - there are very frequent discussions of this (one example is here - http://www.livejournal.com/community/ru_rapier/3974.html)
Good luck figuring it out. | |
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01-03-2006, 06:51 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 294
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Originally Posted by needle Where could I be the night of 25th through 2nd? ...
Now, that I'm mostly sober again, let's see.... | Haha, znaj nashikh! And don't tell me you'll be someplace else from the 6th through to the 13th?
Well in any case, S Novym Godom Dyaden'ka! | |
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01-03-2006, 07:09 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: right here, on your screen
Posts: 1,670
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Originally Posted by Lemberg Haha, znaj nashikh! And don't tell me you'll be someplace else from the 6th through to the 13th?
Well in any case, S Novym Godom Dyaden'ka! | Спасибо, и тебя тоже, племянничек!
Aurora borealis (vodka and champagne) rulez! | |
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01-03-2006, 07:13 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 294
| I was always told that the aforementioned drink also includes a wee bit of beer..? But i guess different strokes for different alcs | |
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01-03-2006, 07:19 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: right here, on your screen
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Originally Posted by Lemberg I was always told that the aforementioned drink also includes a wee bit of beer..? But i guess different strokes for different alcs | Not in my little black book Beer and vodka would be ёрш (ruff), vodka and champagne is северное сияние (aurora borealis). Champagne and beer really don't mix well - test at your own peril ;-) | |
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01-03-2006, 07:22 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 294
| I know...... But if for whatever reason one decides to get completely wasted... the third ingredient comes in.....
Oh boy.. the joys of threadjacking.... | |
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01-03-2006, 07:26 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: State of Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 569
| AHH! The Russian is confusing me! Haha. Now all we need is a thread in Spanish and another in Hebrew. At least those I understand...and even more people will be confused, as few fencers come from Latin America or Israel, as far as I know (not like France or Russia, at least)...I wonder how people would react... 
Consider your threadjacked thread rethreadjacked...(maybe...) | |
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01-03-2006, 07:26 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: right here, on your screen
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Originally Posted by Lemberg I know...... But if for whatever reason one decides to get completely wasted... the third ingredient comes in..... | There's MUCH cheaper way to get completely wasted: take room-temperature vodka, pour it into a bowl, dip bread in that bowl and eat the bread.
This, coincidentally, answers the question "how to get 10 people completely wasted from just one bottle of vodka?"  | |
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01-03-2006, 07:29 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: State of Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 569
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Originally Posted by needle This, coincidentally, answers the question "how to get 10 people completely wasted from just one bottle of vodka?" | That plus russian vodka...in the Cold War the Soviet goverment made millions selling vodka, so they must have done something right  | |
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01-03-2006, 07:31 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: right here, on your screen
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Originally Posted by Krazyhades AHH! The Russian is confusing me! Haha. Now all we need is a thread in Spanish and another in Hebrew. At least those I understand...and even more people will be confused, as few fencers come from Latin America or Israel, as far as I know (not like France or Russia, at least)...I wonder how people would react... | And שלם to you too Man, this is hard without hebrew stickers on keyboard :-( | |
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01-03-2006, 07:33 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 164
| privet i s rozhdestwom,
I don't really drink vodka but feel like stepping in just out of solidariry. Russian looks very good to my eyes | |
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01-03-2006, 07:36 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: right here, on your screen
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Originally Posted by Krazyhades That plus russian vodka...in the Cold War the Soviet goverment made millions selling vodka, so they must have done something right | Unfortunately, Russian vodka that is sold here is crap. The vodka I currently drink is Italian - read the report from last vodka tasting I did here - http://www.livejournal.com/users/starik_igolkin/2739.html#cutid1 | |
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01-03-2006, 07:39 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 294
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by needle There's MUCH cheaper way to get completely wasted: take room-temperature vodka, pour it into a bowl, dip bread in that bowl and eat the bread.
This, coincidentally, answers the question "how to get 10 people completely wasted from just one bottle of vodka?" | No kidding!?! Wow.. you learn something every day... But to me the watermelon/syringe (sp?) trick sounds better.... at least tastier. | |
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01-03-2006, 07:47 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: right here, on your screen
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Originally Posted by Lemberg No kidding!?! Wow.. you learn something every day... But to me the watermelon/syringe (sp?) trick sounds better.... at least tastier. | It is. But it takes more P&P (planning and preparation). How many households you know that have a watermelon lying around just waiting for the mood to get wasted? A loaf of bread, on the other hand ...
Plus, we came up with all of this stuff when we were poor hungry students in the USSR, where watermelons were available two weeks a year and we wanted to drink most of the year | |
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