sabre advice for the non-sabre fencer

[El Chucko]

Can anyone recommend a sabre with more of an "old-fashioned" balance to it? I haven't competed in sabre in about 10 years, and honestly don't really intend to start again now, but I should probably have one in my kit for the occasional demonstration or to help out a beginner with drills, etc.

The problem is that most of the sabres I run across are just so darn light these days. I want one with some heft to it, especially in the guard. What is out there for an electric sabre guard that is a little on the heavy side? How about a beefy insulated pommel nut that will maybe help attain the feel that I am looking for?

[CvilleFencer]

Gods, I can't believe I am going to say this... Check out Triplette. They have a nice heavy reinforced saber guard, the StM/Dynamo blades have some heft to them compared to the BF and Chinese blades and they have a lot of differant pommels to make it really slow and unweildy. You should find just what you are looking for at a reasonable price. Also I think American Fencers has a lot of stuff that might work, although you should probably call them as I am not very familiar with all that they carry. Leon Paul also offers their "tunning tape" which is solt lead coated tape that can add weight in just the right places to change the balance. A deep forward cant can also seem to give the blade more "heft" (and has the benefit of looking like you are cutting/extending when you are actually doing little more than tilting the wrist...)

I have to say I have never had someone ask to make their saber heavier, or that was looking for one that was. Grinding down the flats of the blade (not legal), ultra lightweight parts, carbon fiber or plastic pomel nuts, heat treating an S2000 blade to make it super whippy (not legal) and other fun things I have sort of gotten used to in the realm of saber questions. Thanks for giving me hope that their are actually saber fencers out there that want a blade that feels like a sword. Their might be hope for the breed yet...

[KD5MDK]

My coach has a nice solid steel guard that he's going to attach to dark & heavy blade which will look fairly impressive.

To add a bit of weight, consider a steel pommel nut wrapped with tape rather than the mainly plastic pommels used in most weapons.

American Fencer's Supply has a pair of models of steel guards, but they're both marked left handed only. Is that a problem?
http://www.amfence.com/html/saber_parts.html

[Inquartata]

Santelli used to sell a steel guard that was pretty heavy, but alas, Santelli is no more.

You can still get the big semi-spherical chrome-plated brass counterweight pommels. You'll have to insulate them yourself; I use Shoe-Goo on mine.

BG had some fairly heavy S+M blades at their table in Pittsburgh. If you can't get to a tournament to sort through a pile of blades to get one with the feel you like, you might try describing what you want to a vendor and asking him to pick one with the right characteristics for you. ( With almost everyone looking for light blades he'll probably be overjoyed to get rid of the other sort. )

[El Chucko]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

You can still get the big semi-spherical chrome-plated brass counterweight pommels.

Yes! Perfect. Who carries these?

[black tulip]

Have you tried using a french grip pommel? It will add some hefty weight to it.

Black Tulip

[JackOfHearts]

Originally Posted by black tulip

Have you tried using a french grip pommel? It will add some hefty weight to it.

Black Tulip

Just tried it. Still a bit light, I think. Though would it be legal?

[VERITAS]

Therion Armshttp://therionarms.com/ retails a CAS-Iberia Raedellian saber replica which is quite nice.

Very "Old fashioned" heft and has good looks.

[Moniteur]

Originally Posted by VERITAS

Therion Armshttp://therionarms.com/ retails a CAS-Iberia Raedellian saber replica which is quite nice.

Very "Old fashioned" heft and has good looks.

My Maestro has one of these, I've had a chance to use it quite a bit. I reviewed it at http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=55815

I'm not sure what it would handle like with an S2000 blade in it.. It would probably lose about 4 ounces of weight, and balance right around the ricasso of an S2000 blade, just at a guess. The pommel nut on these is 6mm, and the inside of the grip, etc, is large enough for an S2000 tang, though you may need a small washer on the front of the guard, as the tang hole there is large enough that it might swallow the shoulder on some S2000 blades.

My feeling about the blade its mounted with from CAS is that they'd make nice tomato stakes in my garden.

EDIT: obviously these guard are NOT USFA competition legal. I'm not sure whether the "Hutton" sabre guard would be or not. It's a pretty much vanilla ambidextrous steel sabre guard, with the same backstrap and grip as the so-called "Pecoraro" and "Radaelli" sabres. If I wanted something a bit more normal looking, that is what I would buy to convert to a modern sabre. The guard is about the same width as a modern sabre guard overall, but it's centered rather than offset.

[El Chucko]

I do want a sabre that is USFA-legal, and electric... just not so light. For starters, I would like a robust (steel) guard, preferably with a rolled edge, and as heavy a pommel nut as is allowable.

Has anyone here used the Negrini "Extra" 1.5mm thick sabre guard? In my travels, this seems like it might be my best bet. The Leon Paul standard guard also seems like a possibility, and maybe something from TCA. I can't make heads or tails out of the American Fencers Supply site, but I thought maybe they would have something.

I am not looking for replica weapons.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

I do want a sabre that is USFA-legal, and electric... just not so light. For starters, I would like a robust (steel) guard, preferably with a rolled edge, and as heavy a pommel nut as is allowable.

Has anyone here used the Negrini "Extra" 1.5mm thick sabre guard? In my travels, this seems like it might be my best bet. The Leon Paul standard guard also seems like a possibility, and maybe something from TCA. I can't make heads or tails out of the American Fencers Supply site, but I thought maybe they would have something.

I am not looking for replica weapons.

I don't really like the LP guards. They just don't feel right. Also, if you order from Triplette, make sure you insist upon an s2000 blade, I suspect they went around and bought all the pre-2000 blades when everyone else didn't want them, and they've since made a small fortune selling them to people who assumed they were buying a competition-legal sabre.

[Moniteur]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

I do want a sabre that is USFA-legal, and electric... just not so light. For starters, I would like a robust (steel) guard, preferably with a rolled edge, and as heavy a pommel nut as is allowable.

Has anyone here used the Negrini "Extra" 1.5mm thick sabre guard? In my travels, this seems like it might be my best bet. The Leon Paul standard guard also seems like a possibility, and maybe something from TCA. I can't make heads or tails out of the American Fencers Supply site, but I thought maybe they would have something.

I am not looking for replica weapons.

I've had an email in to AmFence for the last week - inquiring as to whether the LH only thing on their steel guards is a stock issue, or an availibility issue. If I ever hear anything back, I'll post it. I'm not holding my breath however.

[John Myers]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Also, if you order from Triplette, make sure you insist upon an s2000 blade, I suspect they went around and bought all the pre-2000 blades when everyone else didn't want them, and they've since made a small fortune selling them to people who assumed they were buying a competition-legal sabre.

Actually EVERY electric Sabre the TCA sells is S2000. Practice Sabres are standard I section if you order Dynamo or S2000 if you get BF. The reason for this is "I" section in Dynamo is they generally last longer. The S2000 are more brittle, but are stiffer and legal. I suggest if you want a practice Sabre to go ahead and get the S2000 since that is what you have to compete with.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by John Myers

Actually EVERY electric Sabre the TCA sells is S2000.

Ummm, a bit disengenious there I think. Maybe every complete electric saber that TCA sells is S2000 but the blades are a different matter. Or maybe they subscribe to the "Practice" saber blades and "Electric" saber blades being different items with different prices/standards school of thought BS.

I was at a comp where a fencer bought a few saber blades from TCA at a "sweet deal" for his college club and when he showed them to me I pointed out that they were FL's which to my knowledge never made S2000 blades before they went under. Regardless of that they were not stamped S2000 so they were not. In short his "sweet deal" turned out to be wasted money. Even for training purposes, fencing dry and taking lessons with wet noodle blades is counter productive to feel, accuracy, parry distance, etc. Even for practice you should only use S2000 blades.

Now granted, my friend is a dedicated foilist and was just trying to help out his school club. If TCA smelt a sucker and unloaded some old FL's onto him (which I doubt) or if he just did not know the right questions to ask (much more likely) before he bought them, I think there was a definete breakdown in customer service. S2000 blades are the law of the land and TCA should make sure that everyone who buys a saber from them that is not S2000 is aware that the weapon is not legal for USFA comps and could even compromise their club/school insurance (fencing with gear contrary to minimum published regulations). Or TCA could do what pretty much every other reputable vendor does and only sell modern, legal gear with no BS attached.

Good thing he did not get a sweet deal on a TCA "FIE" mask also. If I had to explain that to him at the same time I think that really would have broken his heart. While I am told that the new owners are making a real effort, due to past experiances I strongly suggest caveat emptor for anyone dealing with TCA.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by John Myers

Actually EVERY electric Sabre the TCA sells is S2000. Practice Sabres are standard I section if you order Dynamo or S2000 if you get BF. The reason for this is "I" section in Dynamo is they generally last longer. The S2000 are more brittle, but are stiffer and legal. I suggest if you want a practice Sabre to go ahead and get the S2000 since that is what you have to compete with.

If that is true, it certainly has not always been the case. I am also highly suspect of the claim that pre-2000 blades are put on practice weapons for durability reasons.

[Moniteur]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

I do want a sabre that is USFA-legal, and electric... just not so light. For starters, I would like a robust (steel) guard, preferably with a rolled edge, and as heavy a pommel nut as is allowable.

Has anyone here used the Negrini "Extra" 1.5mm thick sabre guard? In my travels, this seems like it might be my best bet. The Leon Paul standard guard also seems like a possibility, and maybe something from TCA. I can't make heads or tails out of the American Fencers Supply site, but I thought maybe they would have something.

I am not looking for replica weapons.

I heard back from AmFence - they advise that they only have the lefthand guard, and that the right handers aren't available. They said that they have gotten samples of steel guards from a supplier, but haven't actually been able to get stock delivered - and that they've been waiting for 1.5 years to actually take delivery.

[John Myers]

Originally Posted by prototoast

If that is true, it certainly has not always been the case. I am also highly suspect of the claim that pre-2000 blades are put on practice weapons for durability reasons.

Since they have been made mandantory (sp.) we have been putting them as standard. If you have recived one that is not so, let me know I will get the correct blade out to you tomorrow morning first thing. Why are you highly suspect to the claims of duribility? Have you not experienced S2000 blades breaking more than the "I " or "V" sections? I am mainly a Foil/Epee Coach/Fencer. So I am not as experenced with Sabre, so I am always open to advice and points of view from more experenced people.

[John Myers]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Or maybe they subscribe to the "Practice" saber blades and "Electric" saber blades being different items with different prices/standards school of thought BS.

I was at a comp where a fencer bought a few saber blades from TCA at a "sweet deal" for his college club and when he showed them to me I pointed out that they were FL's which to my knowledge never made S2000 blades before they went under. Regardless of that they were not stamped S2000 so they were not. In short his "sweet deal" turned out to be wasted money. Even for training purposes, fencing dry and taking lessons with wet noodle blades is counter productive to feel, accuracy, parry distance, etc. Even for practice you should only use S2000 blades...

....S2000 blades are the law of the land and TCA should make sure that everyone who buys a saber from them that is not S2000 is aware that the weapon is not legal for USFA comps and could even compromise their club/school insurance (fencing with gear contrary to minimum published regulations). Or TCA could do what pretty much every other reputable vendor does and only sell modern, legal gear with no BS attached.

I personally agree that you should practice with what you compete with. However, not everyone thinks this way, or competes for that matter. Why pay for an S2000 blade if you don't compete.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by John Myers

Since they have been made mandantory (sp.) we have been putting them as standard. If you have recived one that is not so, let me know I will get the correct blade out to you tomorrow morning first thing. Why are you highly suspect to the claims of duribility? Have you not experienced S2000 blades breaking more than the "I " or "V" sections? I am mainly a Foil/Epee Coach/Fencer. So I am not as experenced with Sabre, so I am always open to advice and points of view from more experenced people.

Yes, I have received an electric sabre with a pre-2000 blade from triplette. It was at least 3 years ago (probably in '01 or '02), and I was inexperienced at the time, so I didn't know enough to object at the time. If you wanted to send me a 2000 blade, I would love to receive it, however since it was a few years ago, and the only proof of purchase I have remaining is the pre-2000 blade itself and a broken guard, I'd understand if you wouldn't do it.

As for my suspect of the durability claim, I don't dispute that the older blades last longer (I don't necessarily agree, but I don't have any reason to believe that's not true). I do dispute that the durability is the reason to include them. I would suspect that you're just using up old pre-2000 blade supplies the only way you can get away with. I can't imagine any customer would actually prefer to receive one of those blades over a currently-legal blade.

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Grinding down the flats of the blade (not legal),

As long as the flexibility of the blade is not altered, this is not necessarily a true statement. If by the 'flats' you are refering to parts of the tang, that is legal. If you mean the flats forward of the blade/tang interface, or shoulder, then you are still not exactly correct. The key is that it is not done in order to affect the flexibilty of the blade.

That said, I'm not sure who in their right mind would want to muck with grinding the blade at all! That is unless it is to clean out the groove.