Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

argonis · 12-17-2005, 12:32 PM

has anyone done this at a USFA competition? is it allowed? there's a tournament coming up where I'd like to fence epee as well as sabre, but my mask (for various reasons) is unaccessible...

will refs allow it? it definitely works (no conductivity problems or anything)

Frater_Frag · 12-17-2005, 01:23 PM

I can´t see any reason why you shouldn´t be allowed to use a sabre-mask when fencing epee. As you pointed out, there is no problems with conductivity. However, fencing foil with a sabre-mask is another thing...

KD5MDK · 12-17-2005, 02:45 PM

I have done it. However, the second tournament I did this at, it eventually got to the point that (somehow) my mask was grounding out. I don't know if it was a matter of touching the tip and blade at the same time, or grounding out through my jacket down to my glove and weapon (I didn't feel that sweaty), but somehow it started happening.

So, you can do it, but if there are problems you may need to have a spare mask you can borrow if that's a problem. (1st time I did it I took 2nd in an E & Under)

iheartangels · 12-17-2005, 02:46 PM

wouldn't the mask ground out any touches to it? It would be like hitting the guard.

shango · 12-17-2005, 04:06 PM

Only if the guard is touching the mask.

fencerbill · 12-17-2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by argonis

has anyone done this at a USFA competition? is it allowed? there's a tournament coming up where I'd like to fence epee as well as sabre, but my mask (for various reasons) is unaccessible...

will refs allow it? it definitely works (no conductivity problems or anything)

I have seen a Sabre mask used in Div I Mens Epee at a NAC.

What do you mean, grounding out? Were touches not recorded? Possible your blade to your grip to your body to mask. But what is different between a sweat soaked regular mask and a sweat soaked Sabre mask?

keropie · 12-17-2005, 06:55 PM

The difference between a saber mask and a foil mask (also generally used for epee) is that a foil mask MUST be insulated:

Quote:

Originally Posted by USFA_Rulebook

m.27 The mesh of the mask must not extend below the chin. It must
be insulated internally and externally by a plastic material
resistant to impact.

So the insulation at least causes the mesh to still register touches. If I had any reason to think, as on official, that there was a real chance of the mesh of a saber mask grounding out an opponents touches, I would not allow you to wear it, but the rules do not specifically say that you cannot wear one for epee. At least, not that I see.

glowstix · 12-17-2005, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartangels

wouldn't the mask ground out any touches to it? It would be like hitting the guard.

not if there isn't an electrical connection between the two. same thing for fencing foil. it would still be a white light unless there's a connection to the noninsulated mesh and the lame.

KD5MDK · 12-17-2005, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencerbill

But what is different between a sweat soaked regular mask and a sweat soaked Sabre mask?

None, other than it takes a LOT of sweat to make a regular mask conduct.

Frank Pratt · 12-18-2005, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shango

Only if the guard is touching the mask.

...or if the blade contacts the mask before the tip is fully depressed. I could see this happening if the tip hits the top part of the neck and the top of the blade hits the chin before the circuit is completed.

That said, I can't cite any rule that would prohibit a sabre mask being used for epee.

great bowyer · 12-18-2005, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowstix

not if there isn't an electrical connection between the two. same thing for fencing foil. it would still be a white light unless there's a connection to the noninsulated mesh and the lame.

i have seen in practice where some one was fencing foil with a sabre mask and the bib on the mask had a tendency to come in contact with the lame, causing valid touches to register.

for epee, rule m30 (in an older rulebook, 99 i think) does not mention anything about insulated mask for epee, but for foil m27 states that an insulated mask is required. this leads me to beleive that there is no rule against the use of a sabre mask in epee.

Barry Paul · 12-18-2005, 11:00 AM

If you look at the technical description of an epee point you will see that the point top barrel ( the inner bearing surface) must have an O.D. of its collar less than the O.D. of the epee point top.The reason for this was when epee was first electrified hits were not always registering on the masks as the mesh wire was shorting accross the tip and preventing hits being scored. The same thing will happen if a fencer wears any lame clothing, when the oponent hits the lame can wrap round the point and even though the barrel collar is now smaller than the point top the flexible lame can short out the hit. Barry Paul M.D.

larkmaj · 12-18-2005, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by argonis

will refs allow it? it definitely works (no conductivity problems or anything)

The argument against wearing a sabre mask in epee is the same reason why the tip of the foil has to be taped. If the barrel, or blade of a weapon comes in contact with a conductive surface it will extend the ground to that surface be it a lame or sabre mask regardless if of whether of not it is clipped a bodycord. When the tip contacts the mask/lame at that time it will be grounding to its own weapon causing the light to not go off.

I've seen fencers in my division that fence epee in a sabre mask, and if I had a specific rules citation against it I would protest.

Inquartata · 12-18-2005, 08:37 PM

Yet the tips of epees don't have to be taped. I cannot see the relevance to epee.

Like Bill, I have seen a sabre mask worn in epee bouts at NACs. I cannot imagine that no one tried to locate a relevant rule when that fencer showed up for pools or DEs...or that the FIE people responsible for writing the rules wouldn't immediately close an inadvertent "loophole" like that if it were significant to the fencing.

DHCJr · 12-18-2005, 09:17 PM

I have not seen a revelent rule. At the NAC's it wouldn't be significant, since they only use St. George machines. Even if the bib caused a short like Barry suggested, St. George will go off in Epee, EVEN if the blade has a short.

larkmaj · 12-18-2005, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I have not seen a revelent rule. At the NAC's it wouldn't be significant, since they only use St. George machines. Even if the bib caused a short like Barry suggested, St. George will go off in Epee, EVEN if the blade has a short.

I'm not an expert on boxes, but is the difference in using a floating ground and a true ground?

DHCJr · 12-19-2005, 12:29 AM

You are correct with your assumption. It is not a true ground, which makes it technically illegal because of M.31. But then again, almost every piece of equipment would be illegal, because of certain inconsistencies and those rules that haven't kept up with the times.