Petition to recall USFA President

[Inquartata]

Again I have recourse to cite Mencken: "It is a sin to believe ill of your fellow man, but it is seldom a mistake".

I have been similarly chastised for being uncharitable before. As when I expressed doubt about the notion that those who did not evacuate New Orleans before Katrina simply were unable to do so, because they were poor, or because they had no cars. Yet we see what the empiric evidence revealed there.

I am accustomed to being both chastised and vindicated when I venture cynical and suspicious opinions.

For the rest, you are right. I myself would have preferred to keep the tone civil, if not the underlying passions. But different people have different levels of patience, and once it's exhausted must draw on vexation as fuel. I can't really cast the first stone there, anyway...

[striker]

Uncharitable and doubtful. Why would you think this would be true?

Also, I have to say that though Dr. Lutz's methods annoyed me, SR and that lot are actually turning out to be much more obnoxious. Sciurus-Rex has taken the same approach that Alan took to the foil timings. And really it is no better the second time.

To me, SR's tone comes across a lot "lawyer like" than Lutz.
While Lutz is referring to specific issues, instances, and events in
some of his posts, which tells me he seems to know what was happening
inside the USFA, SR is not mentioning events inside USFA.
He is questioning whether 10% is good or 20% is good for recall.
Should the signatures be validated or not to be validated (lawyer talk).
He is questioning whether this is a "lynch mob minority" or not.
As I said, the tone comes across like a lawyer talking to a jury.

By the way, I am eagerly awaiting from someone such as SR to provide
specific names of that silent majority within the USFA hierarchy who
are against the recall.

[yeoldearmourer]

[QUOTE=dr.lutz]

So the window for success being set here for the next president of the USFA is six-to-fifteen months?

If it doesn't bother you that despite Board mandate, Nancy has not overseen the National Office to ensure that the membership had the benfit of online entries, I can't help that.

Regards,

Dr. Lutz

Well Dr here again you have not done your research Like I have stated before the USFA cant do online entries at this time because of the insurence requirements of the sign waiver of Liabilty that the USFA must have from the fencers and not a electrioc one. Now as far as strikeing while the iron was hot Mr. Massik went out and got some major compaines as corp sponaners for USFA. Like Coke, Bank of American, Chervon/Texaco that we didnt have before Athens. Now the USFA is not setup to get fencers endosement deal for the Olympic winners that what agents do it not the USFA job to Market
them. Now I can remenber the time back in the AFLA days and Early in the USFA that at one time we didnt even have Nationals Coaches it sound like to me that there noses are out of joint. I have a major problem with this because of a small group is putting all the blame On one person. What happen to the Vice PRESIDENT's Like Sam would runs the committes they should have also notifiy the people on that committe the vice presidents also have jobs to do and they are not doing their jobs. So there is enough blame to go around.

[dr.lutz]

Well Dr here again you have not done your research Like I have stated before the USFA cant do online entries at this time because of the insurence requirements of the sign waiver of Liabilty that the USFA must have from the fencers and not a electrioc one.


Dear Tim,

In fact, the homework was done long ago. After the Executive Director said the USFA could not go to online entries specifically because of the insurance requirements, the insurance company was called directly.

The insurance company said the USFA could, indeed, go the online entry route.

If the waiver was an issue, it could have been collected at the event.

I'm sorry, but you are espousing the exact view that our ED espoused, and that view has been proven to be incorrect by our own insurance company.

Regards,

Dr. Lutz

[yeoldearmourer]

Well I guess I talk to the wrong person at the insurance company then because I called them directly too. Dont get me wrong on the online issue It would be nice but the NO stilled would have to go though them. Collected at the event and by whom would do the collecting local people that wouldnt work someone else bought out by the NO. You know me Dr now the question is who are you.

[dr.lutz]

Well I guess I talk to the wrong person at the insurance company then because I called them directly too. Dont get me wrong on the online issue It would be nice but the NO stilled would have to go though them. Collected at the event and by whom would do the collecting local people that wouldnt work someone else bought out by the NO. You know me Dr now the question is who are you.

The Canadian Fencing Federation does online entries, and handled this past weekend's Junior World Cup in that manner.

It can be done.

DL

[Sciurus-Rex]

To me, SR's tone comes across a lot "lawyer like" than Lutz. ...

By the way, I am eagerly awaiting from someone such as SR to provide
specific names of that silent majority within the USFA hierarchy who
are against the recall.

It's troubling any time a contentious issue is reduced to being defined by personalities arguing it. I shall endeavor to reduce my play in this and trust in the good conscience of others. ... Remember, however, that I and others like me here didn't become vocal until the petition-pushers entered this message board with weak allegations that offended our sensibilities. My arguments are limited to fencing.net pages; when the lynch mob leaves my front porch, I will not give chase down the street.

As for the nature of the "silent majority": Those people would be everyone who have opted to not sign the petition. Really, it's that simple when you think about it -- a small group trying to enact change (legitimate or not) carries the onus of passionate conversion; those opposed need only wait for the former to fail.

[heretic]

It's troubling any time a contentious issue is reduced to being defined by personalities arguing it..

You don't see any contradiction between the above referenced statement and the quote below?

By vociferously petitioning a recall of the president of the USFA, a few malcontents hope to force Nancy Anderson to step down. Their objective is to put in place a new president who will cater to their specific desires regardless of the larger membership, at any cost. A closer examination of their identities will reveal their true, selfish affiliations.
.

I am one of those "malcontents vociferously petitioning a recall of the president." I have no pecuniary interest in who runs the USFA; I have no "specific desires," other than to see US fencing continue the advances it has made over the previous quadrennial; everyone knows my identity (no one knows yours). Except for the vocal minority anonymously represented by you and "eze," no one has openly supported Nancy (with the exception of one parent who was happy with her "pat on the back" encounter).

[Goofy]

So the window for success being set here for the next president of the USFA is six-to-fifteen months?

Dear Goofy,

I'm sorry but you've missed the point here.

It is not the timeframe that really matters. Rather, it is what Nancy has or hasn't done that matters.

If it doesn't bother you that National Coaches weren't appointed for the first 17 months of Nancy's term, I can't help that.

If it doesn't bother you that the Fundrasinig Committee will have no report (nor Chair) for the February Board meeting, which is basically a year and a half into Nancy's term, I can't help that.

If it doesn't bother you that despite Board mandate, Nancy has not overseen the National Office to ensure that the membership had the benfit of online entries, I can't help that.

It is not the timeframe, but rather that time has stood still in the USFA since Nancy took office nearly a year and a half ago.

Regards,

Dr. Lutz

Actually, it is you that has missed the point. You have quoted only a portion of my post, and then used it to allow another of your tiresome anti-Anderson tirades. Here is the complete content of what I wrote, and I want to note the statements in bold type:

So the window for success being set here for the next president of the USFA is six-to-fifteen months?

It could be even less than that. With any large organization one must play 'what if' when making drastic change- what if the recall succeeds, a new president is appointed, and 30 days into the new administration a recall supported by 1000 signatures takes place because online registration (which has been listed as the most grievous problem, and therefore would constitute just cause) has not been implemented?

Before any anti-Nancy sentiment is given as a response, realize that I am neither defending nor condemning individuals in the current USFA administration. I am only trying to establish a sense of what might happen should the recall succeed. Because if it does succeed then a very dangerous precedent is being set.

In my opinion the tact to be taken in the USFA at this time is a public plea for policy changes, not administrative changes. Publicly list any grievances, and publicly call for action by the current administration by petitioning signatures from the membership so that the administration knows what people want. THEN, and after a resonable amount of time (to be determined based on the problems), publicy take drastic measures against the administration should those pleas be ignored. In the current situation the only public action has been a recall attempt.

I hope there is change in and for the USFA, but not in the way you are asking for it.

What you list as problems do, in fact, bother me. I will admit that some bother me less than others, but they do bother me.

Once again, though, if the efforts of the recall group succeed what will be done to correct the problems? The answer is that the group does not know, because they do not know who will be named president. While they do have a preferred candidate, unless there have been secret arrangements made they do not know that he will even be named to the interim (90-day) position much less elected.

In short, no one knows what will happen if the recall effort succeeds.

Unfortunately, the only public demand made has been for a resignation. What needs to happen is for the membership to publicly demand that the administration take action on problems in/with the organization. I've seen no national-level evidence that this has been done.

I hope there is change in and for the USFA, but not in the way you are asking for it.

[yeoldearmourer]

My Problem with all of this is that no one is holding the Vice presidents to the fire for their lack of doing their jobs. There is enough blame to be share by all inculed the board of directors. Nancy does not have all the power has being made out to be. As far as missing her plane I have miss planes before and I leave in more then enough time to catch one. I have seen to many committes not have reports done for boards meetings. So let recalled all of them included Sam for not doing there jobs.Had come the running of the whole orgainze is being put on Nancy shoulder and how come this is not being handle by the Congress cant get the required vote though congress. Has far as the National Coachs goes what good to they do for the majority of the menberships none they are for the elite fencers only can a reg fencer get help from them I dont think so so how can they be call National Coaches. If the menbership is paying for them they should get something in exchange.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

I have no pecuniary interest in who runs the USFA; I have no "specific desires," other than to see US fencing continue the advances it has made over the previous quadrennial; everyone knows my identity (no one knows yours).

Bold emphasis added by me.

No, I for one do not know your identity. Care to reveal it to us still in the dark?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson, posting under his real name.

BTW: Dr. Lutz posted that he disliked being called all sorts of names in this thread. Dr. Lutz: You have my word as a fellow fencer that I will not call you anything else than your given name, under the sole condition that you reveal it.

[chiz]

...Has far as the National Coachs goes what good to they do for the majority of the menberships none they are for the elite fencers only can a reg fencer get help from them I dont think so so how can they be call National Coaches. If the menbership is paying for them they should get something in exchange.

Tim,

You have something here about the National Coaches. Why not record and document the coaching sessions for use in the Coaches Clinics and by the USFA membership? I’m not sure if the National Coaches will go for this, giving away their secrete methods and such, but edit out any proprietary information. Record them to DVD and sell them to offest the cost of production and make a little profit.

Sorry to hijack the thread
Chiz

[yeoldearmourer]

That would be fine by me that the menmbers can take advantage of their knownledlge and skill

[Sciurus-Rex]

(responding to the following) "Well Dr here again you have not done your research Like I have stated before the USFA cant do online entries at this time because of the insurence requirements of the sign waiver of Liabilty that the USFA must have from the fencers and not a electrioc one."

In fact, the homework was done long ago. After the Executive Director said the USFA could not go to online entries specifically because of the insurance requirements, the insurance company was called directly.

The insurance company said the USFA could, indeed, go the online entry route.

I'm sorry, but you are espousing the exact view that our ED espoused, and that view has been proven to be incorrect by our own insurance company.

Dear Lutz,

The cautious among us still question the validity of your assertions, the source of said information, and the related personality interplay.

For example, it would be useful to find out who actually provided our ED with the original information. And as a followup, why no one else in leaderhip corrected that situation after (as you say) contacting the insurance company directly.

Although I'm sure you're loathe to give up this nugget of contention for your agenda, the more reasonable perspective is that *SOMEONE* could have straightened this out earlier instead of saving it for a recall rainy day.

[Sciurus-Rex]

(expresses confusion)

It's undestandable that you would miss the subtle difference. But an obnoxious personality is not the same as an obnoxious motive or obnoxiously unfounded, skewed allegations leading to an obnoxiously inappropriate and expensive recall.

[fluidfencer]

Leadership is necessary to get things done, especially in a volunteer organization. I am on a national committee. My committee chair is responsible for determining my assignments and making sure I get them done on time. We make decisions as a group, but the chairman provides leadership and allows the committee to speak with one authoritative voice. If I do my job and the chair doesn't, things don't get done and my work is essentially worthless. So the committee chair is critically important.

The vice president's job is to do the same with the committees for which they are responsible. If a committee chair is not doing what is expected, get an explanation, provide guidance, and replace them if necessary.

Nancy's job is to do the same with the USFA, although the replacing of vice presidents is a much more complicated affair. Still, they can be actively managed, and worked around if necessary to get the job done.

As has been pointed out before, the USFA Board, and specifically the Executive Committee, have oversight with Nancy. I am getting the impression that the recall effort has finally prompted that group to press Nancy to do her job. It's sad that it took a recall petition to make that happen.

Now, here is the problem I face. Some people have mistakenly concluded that a recall is "the goal", or that personalities involved are the most important issue. I would argue that The Goal is to get the USFA operating well and planning for the future. If the recall effort prompts actions that get things moving in the right direction, would the best plan be to drop the recall and continue pressing Nancy and the Board to take the right steps, in a public way if necessary? I still don't think Nancy is the best person to lead the USFA, and some of the VPs should be replaced as well, but do we do that (recall) now or are our efforts better spent focusing on current needs, AND making plans to find the best people for the next election in 2008?

I guess I would also like some acknowledgement from Nancy that things need to be done better. It really pissed me off when she sent that "everything is OK and we are doing so very very well tralalalala..." email a week or so back. We're not doing well and I'd like her or the Board to lay out some concrete steps about what they plan to do. The survey is a good first step, and some other things are functioning OK, but my confidence level is pretty low at the moment.

And to the USFA... when someone steps up and volunteers to help in areas that need fixing, please accept it! And try delegating. There are people smart enough to fix things like the online registration problem. I know that people have volunteered to help. Just one example but there are others (I know from personal experience).

My Problem with all of this is that no one is holding the Vice presidents to the fire for their lack of doing their jobs. There is enough blame to be share by all inculed the board of directors. Nancy does not have all the power has being made out to be. As far as missing her plane I have miss planes before and I leave in more then enough time to catch one. I have seen to many committes not have reports done for boards meetings. So let recalled all of them included Sam for not doing there jobs.Had come the running of the whole orgainze is being put on Nancy shoulder and how come this is not being handle by the Congress cant get the required vote though congress. Has far as the National Coachs goes what good to they do for the majority of the menberships none they are for the elite fencers only can a reg fencer get help from them I dont think so so how can they be call National Coaches. If the menbership is paying for them they should get something in exchange.

[Sciurus-Rex]

As has been pointed out before, the USFA Board, and specifically the Executive Committee, have oversight with Nancy. I am getting the impression that the recall effort has finally prompted that group to press Nancy to do her job. ...

I would argue that The Goal is to get the USFA operating well and planning for the future. If the recall effort prompts actions that get things moving in the right direction, would the best plan be to drop the recall and continue pressing Nancy and the Board to take the right steps, in a public way if necessary? I still don't think Nancy is the best person to lead the USFA, and some of the VPs should be replaced as well, but do we do that (recall) now or are our efforts better spent focusing on current needs, AND making plans to find the best people for the next election in 2008?

Agreement.

I'd rather she (and the board) step up efforts to make the complainers happy than waste our good money on a recall-prompted election in the middle of the season.

At this point, the recall effort seems more of a stubborn grudge match.

[heretic]

Hi!
Bold emphasis added by me.

No, I for one do not know your identity. Care to reveal it to us still in the dark?
Peter Gustafsson, posting under his real name.

I posted a letter to the editor that was published in American Fencing under my "byline."

Live from NY - Eric Rosenberg. Hur mår du?

[fluidfencer]

Please be careful about putting words in my mouth (err.. words). I'm saying that a recall effort still might be the right decision if it proves necessary. I have some concerns that the recall has become the goal, or that personalities might be taking priority over ideas.

There is a lot to prove on BOTH sides of the issue.

Agreement.

I'd rather she (and the board) step up efforts to make the complainers happy than waste our good money on a recall-prompted election in the middle of the season.

At this point, the recall effort seems more of a stubborn grudge match.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Please be careful about putting words in my mouth ...

???? I agreed with your direct quote and then expounded on it with my own thoughts. I did not put words into your mouth.

Or are you just concerned that we could be in agreement even for a moment? It's OK. Don't fret so. We all know you're still tough on crime.