Petition to recall USFA President

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

There's a hole in your assumption, dude.
If a few people didn't claim Nancy was a problem, there would not be a recall.
Nancy need not be a problem for someone to start the process (for their own misguided reasons). The mere presence of the recall does not imply genuine fault.

Now that's been straightened out, you can rescind your signature as so many others have by sending a short letter to the USFA office... (I'll post that address for you again later.)

Nah, I'm for the recall. People talk about all these changes that need to be made in the USFA.... do you think they're gonna happen just by talking about them? No way. There needs to be a change in leadership before change may take place. I think we need to recall the executive director, also.

[Epeecurean]

You bet your sweet bippy. IF this nonsense is pushed through, the new woman is going to be put under a magnifying glass and not given even the slightest chance to breath, lest she prove to be just as human and fallable as every other president before her.

Yes, if the recall succeeds the new president will be under a much greater level of scrutiny. This would be a GOOD thing -- greater accountability and all that. Sciurus, you could be quite useful in this regard, like an ombudsman. Can we count on you to highlight any shortcomings of an incoming administration?

Cheers,
Epeecurean

[Epeecurean]

Mmmm, another comment. I just spent the past hour or so finally reading through the Team Handball complaint letter (86 pages) and response from their President (43 more). Looks like they'd run out of money and were laying off staff prior to being taken over by the USOC. Not being able to support the building or staff were a separate issue (although their severe financial shortfall likely had a lot to do with their status being revoked). Sorry about any confusion.

Also from those documents it appears that the head of their Athletes Advisory Group demanded the resignation of their President, then the President dissolved their board (as per a newly voted-upon constitution, a vote that was objected to by the marjority of the board and possibly unconstitutional), whereupon the board (operating under the assumption that they were NOT dissolved) impeached the president. At which point the USOC stepped in and shut everything down. At the time the USOC stepped in there was dispute over which constitution was in force, whether the board still existed, and whether or not the president was still in office.

I do not believe that the USFA is at risk of going down the route that Team Handball has just followed. It looks like it started from a contentious election, followed by people playing power games with constitutional changes, votes of the general membership vs. votes of the Board of Directors, etc. and spiralled out of control. And it took just over a year from the announcement of a contested election to complete implosion.

Makes me glad that we're not nearly as messy as some of the truly disfunctional NGBs out there. There are much worse things than the way the USFA has ever operated.

-B

This has to be the post-of-the-day (at least in the recall thread). Excellent information here, and I think to should help alleviate fears of a potential takeover of the USFA by the USOC. I find it curious that some of the most vocal anti-recall posters haven't responded to this post but instead continue to wage a flame war with the good Dr. Lutz and heretic.

[yeoldearmourer]

Massik as done more as ED then any one else landing Coke as a Corp Sponser and several others. Now as far as Mariel goes her parnets should have hire a pro to market her gold medal if I was her parnet you can bet you last dollar I would have a agent selling her gold and world champsion medals. The Smart's even though they didnt medal they did a beauful job in market themseleves for that Silk Milk ad. By the way just to let you all know I dont agree with ever thing that Massik does and I called him on it> I have gone toe to toe with him on things in the pass. On line res maybe come as sone as the work out the libitay issue with the inssurnce company.

[oiuyt]

QUOTE=heretic]QUOTE=oiuyt]
But the point I was more interested in addressing was the one with regards to giving out national points for every RYC. This was overwhelmingly opposed at the Board level a year and a half ago. Largely because it was not presented in a finished form. As I stated, we were in the R&D phase At that time a proposal was made that every RYC offer national points. The vast majority of those present were against this idea.

It was a finished enough form that the Board was being presented with a motion to starting handing out national points at all of the 32 (I believe that was the number on the calendar at that time) events listed for 04-05.

And then with some of the stories coming out about how they were run, basic rules violations, etc that's what regional coordinators were supposed to handle. If a tournament suffered myriad complaints and bad management, it should lose subsequent designation .

And what, presumably, they are doing now. I don't expect this problem to clear up overnight. I know I've heard fewer such complaints. Whether that's because there are fewer events, that there are 12 coordinators (not including shared positions) instead of 4-5, whether it's because more and more of the guidelines are being written down and disseminated so there are fewer problems, or whether it's just that I haven't been hearing what complaints there are I don't know.

I don't think it was a failing of Nancy's that there was widespread resistance to awarding of national points to tournaments with minimal national standards or oversight Unfortunately, you were not present when Stacey Johnson endorsed some of our national policy requests, like mandating attendance at RYC as a pre-requisite for competing in a YNAC. The President can and does make a difference.

This is current policy, no? I'm not sure what your point here is.

In the original plan (well, one of the "original plans" anyway), points were to be awarded starting in 04-05. The Board, which Nancy had minimal control over the composition of, was strongly opposed to this course of action. Feel free to blame the board of the time -- of which I was a member and present at the meeting, as well as, I believe, yourself, although not present at that meeting By that time, the committee was being run by Ro. All prior plans were summarily tossed aside.-- but as a whole.

Ro had been in his position for almost exactly a month at that point. The motion that was presented to the Board was written by a "transition" group. It was not clear -- despite explicit questions on the subject -- who, actually, wrote the document that was presented as a motion. Subsequent plans were made by the current (mostly, I believe Alex Ripa was added after most of the currently plans had already been set pretty much in place) committee, which, as you mention, is organized under Ro (and chair Kelly).

Most of the current actions can be credited/blamed on the current YDC people (and, through derivation, and at one remove, to Nancy for putting the YDC people in place (with the approval of the Board)), but not, in my opinion, the rejection of the idea of giving out national points at all RYC events. That was handled at the Board level. The proposal was tossed by the Board and the YDC was asked to go back ot the drawing board and come up with new ideas.

Even with these improvements (opinion, not fact, I understand that there's some disagreement over whether or not the system has improved), I would still be fairly reluctant to support giving national points for RYC events at this point in time. we need to discus this in depth elsewhere. If the correct formula is developed, it can answer most of your objections

We need to chat[/QUOTE]

[color="blue"]Quite possibly. I think it's clear that we both have the best interests of the youth fencers and US Fencing as a whole in mind, even when we disagree on what steps to take in that interest.

Anyway, this, while all interesting and (IMO) useful discussion, is straying fairly far off topic (not that I'm noted for being an opponent of thread drift, but this thread's long enough without opening what could and should be lengthy discussions in the middle of it).

-B

[Epeecurean]

After talking to and emailing several persons that I trust. I have come around to the fact that Nancy is not up to the job of President. I have know Nancy for 30 years and it hurts me to have to support the recalled petion. She has done alot for fencing but she was not up to the president postion. That all I have to say on the subject. She is getting bad advice from her freinds that are afriad to tell her to resign. They are keeping her in the dark therefore she wont resign because of bad advice

The USOC is going to come down hard on The USFA and we will no longer have a NGB. Just like they did handball. The USOC will make all the decision with our sports. SO have fun. Every adminstation inculded Stacy had problems. I was taking to other freinds in other
sports at USOC today and this as got the attention of the USOC.

Hi Tim,

You seem to have shifted from pro- to anti-recall, apparently due in part to the potential negative fall-out from the USOC. However, after reading what ouiyt has researched on US handball, which was in complete financial disarray and organisational chaos when the USOC stepped in, the claims that the USOC will do the same with the USFA comes across as unnecessarily alarmist. The USFA does not have these severe problems and the recall is an orderly process in accordance with the USFA by-laws.

While I believe those against the recall are right to ask what direction a new president and administration will take the USFA, this is a question which can be best examined during the election period when candidate(s) formally step forward. Despite the potential cost of a contested election, I say that it would be worth every penny -- political competition is good and election mandates are meaningful.

I hope that those close to Nancy who know she "is not up to the job of President" urge her to resign.

Cheers,
Epeecurean

[oiuyt]

You seem to have shifted from pro- to anti-recall, apparently due in part to the potential negative fall-out from the USOC. However, after reading what ouiyt has researched on US handball, which was in complete financial disarray and organisational chaos when the USOC stepped in, the claims that the USOC will do the same with the USFA comes across as unnecessarily alarmist. The USFA does not have these severe problems and the recall is an orderly process in accordance with the USFA by-laws.

Just to further elaborate, while I haven't done an exhaustive examination (by ANY stretch of the imagination), it appears that the several NGB's that have been decertified in the recent past -- Tae Kwon Do, Modern Pentathlon, Team Handball -- have ALL had major financial problems (to the point where they were bankrupt). This is not true, as far as I can tell, of US Volleyball, which is currently being reviewed for decertification, an action which the USOC has not (yet) taken.

In many/all of these cases there were additionally internal political battles. Which caused the USOC to step in -- or whether it was the combination of factors -- I don't have the information upon which to base an informed statement.

-B

[Repechage]

Nancy has made a tremendous contribution to US fencing over the years and it would be a shame for her to damage the USFA in her bid to cling to power.

Oh, come on. Seems to me she's just done okay in contributions to US Fencing over the years, but it would be a shame for someone else to damage the USFA by trying to remove her from office in a bid to seize power.

Right now seems to me both sides in this debate are overstating, anyway. The president hasn't done a great job, but neither has anybody else. People seem to be blaming the president for a lot of stupid things the USFA has done or not done over the years, including some stuff the President dosen't have anything to do with. I bet Nancy was persuaded to take it on because they told her she wouldn't have to do very much.

I'm not in favor of this thing because I really don't trust the people I know who are behind it. Their really intense, and they aren't interested in helping the ordinary fencer.

[Epeecurean]

Right now seems to me both sides in this debate are overstating, anyway.

I think you are right and I had toned done my own comments (including the deletion of that sentence) in an edit right after I posted. Unfortunately, you must've responded before the edit was saved and so caught me out.

The president hasn't done a great job, but neither has anybody else. People seem to be blaming the president for a lot of stupid things the USFA has done or not done over the years, including some stuff the President dosen't have anything to do with. I bet Nancy was persuaded to take it on because they told her she wouldn't have to do very much.

If she quits she'll have even less to do!

I'm not in favor of this thing because I really don't trust the people I know who are behind it. Their really intense, and they aren't interested in helping the ordinary fencer.

Are you referring to those who have declared themselves publicly or to some behind-the-scenes movers?

Cheers,
Epeecurean

[yeoldearmourer]

Hi Tim,

You seem to have shifted from pro- to anti-recall, apparently due in part to the potential negative fall-out from the USOC. However, after reading what ouiyt has researched on US handball, which was in complete financial disarray and organisational chaos when the USOC stepped in, the claims that the USOC will do the same with the USFA comes across as unnecessarily alarmist. The USFA does not have these severe problems and the recall is an orderly process in accordance with the USFA by-laws.

While I believe those against the recall are right to ask what direction a new president and administration will take the USFA, this is a question which can be best examined during the election period when candidate(s) formally step forward. Despite the potential cost of a contested election, I say that it would be worth every penny -- political competition is good and election mandates are meaningful.

I hope that those close to Nancy who know she "is not up to the job of President" urge her to resign.

Cheers,
Epeecurean

I havn't shift as much as I am worry about what can happen to the sport that I have come to love so much. Poltics was bad enough in another sport that I was a National and Olympic contender that I quit because of the back stabbing and the need to kiss someone butt to get money to travel. I just hate the way this is being handle. I been in this sport long enoungh to remenber things that most people dont even no about.I am for the sport,

[Mo]

The anti-recall advocates (I wouldn't necessarily characterize them as pro-Nancy) indicate that a change in the status quo is unnecessary and unwarranted.

Not necessarily true. Many of us think there's a great deal that could be changed for the USFA. Simply removing the President just doesn't strike us as the "one-size-knickers-fits-all" solution.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

The fact that some posters would conflate capitalizing on individual results at the Olympics with self aggrandizement (see wheaties box crack) is either naive or just plain insulting – or both.

The fact that some recall supporters don't see a serious case of sour grapes in this is just plain naive.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

The Board, which Nancy had minimal control over the composition of, was strongly opposed to this course of action. Feel free to blame the board of the time -- of which I was a member and present at the meeting, as well as, I believe, yourself, although not present at that meeting -- but as a whole.

Officially, Heretic was caught in traffic on the way to the board meeting. However; Dr. Lutz' personal Freeway Congestion Diary noted no major traffic tie-ups or delays during the time or on the route Heretic was taking.

[dr.lutz]

Oh, come on. Seems to me she's just done okay in contributions to US Fencing over the years, but it would be a shame for someone else to damage the USFA by trying to remove her from office in a bid to seize power.

Dear Repechage,

Nobody from this group is bidding to seize any power at all.
This group is comprised of some very loyal volunteers, some of whom have served in many positions within the USFA over the last 20 years.

Not one is looking for any political position, nor throwing their name into the hat for the President position.

On the contrary, those behind the recall have always accepted any job the USFA has asked them to do.

Calling this a "bid to seize power" is incorrect and unfair.

We are of the opinion that our failure to pursue the recall and remove Nancy would do serious damage to the USFA.


Right now seems to me both sides in this debate are overstating, anyway.

We have made our points based on the facts. (Problems within the National Office, failure of Nancy to inform the Chairs of the International Committee and the Fundraising Committee of their positions, etc.)

If we overstated anything, please point out specific examples.



I'm not in favor of this thing because I really don't trust the people I know who are behind it. Their really intense, and they aren't interested in helping the ordinary fencer.

To say "they aren't interested in helping the ordinary fencer" couldn't be further from reality.

The reality is that the overwhelming majority of petition signees have come from the "ordinary fencers," as they understand that we are fighting for them.

While we have a keen eye on the International program, the ordinary fencers are affected by the shortcomings of the National Office, the Regional Youth Circuit, and the NACs.


Regards,

Dr. Lutz

[DieterS]

Think about it this way; take all those politics, hidden agendas, infighting, and replace them with people who don't give an expletive about the actual sport of fencing. darius

Good point. But while the Pentathlon and Team Handball folks may not be happy with a bureaucratic, disinterested USOC administration, I would guess that it is still better than an administration paralyzed with infighting.

However, if the USOC took over the administration of U.S. Fencing, wouldn't they also take over the assets of the USFA to use as they see fit? Would the USOC be constrained to use USFA assets for the sport of fencing or would the assets be added to the USOC general fund?

Does anyone know?

Dieter

[Capt. Slo-mo]

However, Sam understands the main problems at hand and will focus on the following areas:

1) The National Office (professionalizing, modernizing, accountability)
2) The NACS (unwieldy, and in need of limiting through different qualifying paths)
3) The International Program (at this stage, that program seems to be working much better, but I envision some changes in the personnel area)
4) The Regional Youth Circuit (get back to what worked in the last quad)
5) Professionalization of the USFA (marketing, fundraising, office, online entries)

And we know this: how? Because you say so?

I say Sam plans to take the entire budget of the USFA and buy out the SCA. He will then mandate the use of only historically accurate rapiers as the sole weapon fenced at every NAC.

Now we have two unsubstantiated promises of action by Sam. No more, no less.

I suggest we let Sam speak for himself, instead of trying to smokescreen the recall with vague promises that he might not have any intention of keeping. Then, we'll have a barometer by which to judge HIS efficacy, should the recall and coronation succeed.

In any event, the 5 areas outlined above only rise to the level of political speech-making like: "I want freedom for every American!"

Well, sure, who doesn't, but how are you going to DO it? Exactly what will you change, how will you change it, how will you pay for it? These are far more important points to the rank and file than mere platitudes like: "He'll professionalize the NO."

[Sciurus-Rex]

Yes, if the recall succeeds the new president will be under a much greater level of scrutiny. This would be a GOOD thing -- greater accountability and all that. Sciurus, you could be quite useful in this regard, like an ombudsman. Can we count on you to highlight any shortcomings of an incoming administration?

Aaaawww, you flatter me, Epeecurean (heh, "pee" and "urea") .... I'm touched, really, deep down. Would I get an official title, too?

I'd be happy to. But the new administration is still two years away, remember.

You get to be my vice ombudsman. Promise.

[dr.lutz]

I hope that those close to Nancy who know she "is not up to the job of President" urge her to resign.

Cheers,
Epeecurean


Dear Epeecurean,

And in my opinion, herein lies the main, if not sole, reason why Nancy has not yet resigned.

For the last six months, her closest advisors were well aware that a recall was brewing. We begged them to try to get her to resign.

Privately, each one agreed that she was not up to the job. They wanted to give her time to get her sea-legs to see if she could grow into the job.

But, as time went by, it became clear to them that she was beyond help.

About six weeks ago, we again literally begged this select group to ask Nancy to resign. They were told that we were coming to them as a last resort prior to proceeding with the recall, as we felt that if Nancy would listen to anyone, it would be them.

We were told, "Bring us the necessary signatures and we'll then go to her."

Obviously, that was not what we were hoping to hear, as that would leave us no choice but to go public with the recall in order to get the signatures.

The end result was that while these close friends/advisors wouldn't tell Nancy to resign, one of us called her on the Saturday prior to the Pittsburgh NAC and asked her.


Seeing the USFA go backwards since Athens has been frustrating.

Being called all sorts of names and being accused of power-grabbing has been frustrating.

Having to go forward with the recall has been frustrating.

But, the most frustrating part of this has been to see well-meaning, intelligent, and altruistic USFA volunteers and friends/advisors of Nancy privately agree that she must go ...but then do nothing to get Nancy to resign.

Unfortunately, what we both hope for is not likely to happen until all the signatures are in. Then, and only then, will Nancy resign, unless her friends/advisors have a change of heart.

Regards,

Dr. Lutz

[KD5MDK]

While I believe those against the recall are right to ask what direction a new president and administration will take the USFA, this is a question which can be best examined during the election period when candidate(s) formally step forward. Despite the potential cost of a contested election, I say that it would be worth every penny -- political competition is good and election mandates are meaningful.

The problem with this is that unless the nominating committee returns two names (which they haven't done in I don't know how long) or somebody else goes through a reasonably complicated petition process themself, there won't be an election, and nobody will have an opportunity to find out these things.

In any event, the way a number of people talk about this, it sounds as if to them the recall is:
"Jimmy Carter is a terrible president. He needs to be recalled. Richard Nixon has said he is willing to do the job, and he was very effective in normalizing relations with China."

If that's how they view things, convincing them a recall is a good idea will take a lot of work.

[yeoldearmourer]

To say "they aren't interested in helping the ordinary fencer" couldn't be further from reality.

The reality is that the overwhelming majority of petition signees have come from the "ordinary fencers," as they understand that we are fighting for them.



Regards,

Dr. Lutz

Sam who would step in as President has never been a fencer and the others as never been" ordinary fencers" Most of them are elite type fencers. By the way Sam is not only a lawyer but a CPA as well can't trust either one.