Black Card Powers and the Referee

[Mr Epee]

Un-thread jacking here: I hope this works - fingers crossed

Ex) last nationals I went to was Albuquerque and one of the refs tried black carding a girl for foul language, oh my! The bout-committee, the ref, and the girl's coach fought over it for hours! Wasting so many peoples time, it was ridiculous...

The card was for unsportmanlike behavior -- specifically telling the referee that she wanted a bout committee ruling not to challenge a specific application of the rules, but because he was "making sucky calls."

You're right, the fact that there was a large amount of discussion was rediculous. The black card should have stood and there shouldn't have been ANY discussion of recinding it (much less what actually happened). Could the situation have been handled differently and not escalated to that point? Almost assuredly. Once it got to that point and the athlete (and coach) acted the way they did there shouldn't have been any question as to the result. There's a line that you cannot cross. Once you've crossed it -- and only the referee on strip should be making that determination -- it's done.

Over the past two seasons I've seen at least 3 long (half-hour plus) discussions where coaches attempted to (sometimes successfully) get black cards rescinded (generally reduced to group 3 red cards). This shouldn't be an option. The more this type of behavior is allowed the more of these disruptive discussions will take place. ESPECIALLY when they have a chance of being successful.

This is a good thread, and I don't really want to jack it further, BUT

Look, the volunteer officials utilized by the USFA have extensive powers that CAN and DO get abused - I'm positive that the majority of the time it is unintentional, but a black card is an exceptionally powerful tool. It's no secret that there are a number of "Black Card Cowboys" among the referee corps, and I've always been disturbed by referees chatting gleefully about who they've black carded and where.

In tennis, walking up to the chair and saying "your calls suck", will result in a point penalty, but it would have to be EXTREME to get you expelled from the competition.

Yes - Offense Against Sportsmanship is a Black Card Offense, but the Rule Book fails to define "Sportsmanship". There are many unsportsmanlike behaviors that are specifically defined as Group 1, 2, and 3 offenses. The lack of definition clearly makes Offense Against Sportsmanship a bucket catch extreme situations not covered in other rules. It is also clearly a discretionary call, and I for one have difficulty placing my trust in the pure discretion of marginally trained volunteers.

And I have trouble with emphasizing to the officials that they must enforce the rules, put specific emphasis on controlling the athletes and coaches, including making sure that a respectful attitude is maintained, and then over-ruling the officials when a call is made, especially when the people overturning the decision did not witness the incident (although I would still have a problem HAD the incident been witnessed).

This isn't specific to the Albequerque incident. There was a situation in Sacramento where a mask was drop-kicked, narrowly missing hitting a spectator in the face (it clipped the drapery barrier and was redirected off of her shoulder instead). While I believe the black card ended up standing, there was discussion aimed at removing it for over an hour, involving the coach of the athlete, the FOC assigner, the Athlete Representative present, etc., etc. Such discussions should not take place.

I certainly don't expect or insist upon complete silence while fencing. As a referee I will certainly put up with a fair degree of complaints and questions. As a fencer I do my share of questioning calls (granted this is something which I am consciously working to reduce). The manner in which this takes place is at least as important as what is said.

Fencing does NOT have the same standards as tennis. Or baseball, or kendo, or any other sport. Why should it? McEnroe routinely engaged in histrionics which would result in immediate expulsion from any fencing tournament. And that's a good thing (that such demonstrations would result in a black card in fencing, not that he engaged in them during his tennis career).

I'm certainly not a "black card cowboy." Not counting incidents where a fencer failed to report to strip (checked in without being present, left after pools not realizing that fencing tournaments also have a DE component, etc.), I have awarded exactly 1 black card in my life (4 years ago or thereabouts). In this case the athlete, at the conclusion of his DE match, which he lost badly to a fencer seeded considerably below himself, threw his mask. I was perhaps more lenient than I should have been, addressed him by name, and cautioned him against throwing his equipment. At that point he unhooked his foil and threw it as well. As soon as the black card came out his coach came running up trying to convince me to reverse my decision. As he pointed out his student (age 10 at the time, I believe) had seen a number of junior fencers engage in similar behavior without censure.

In this case the event organizer prompted entered the conversation, redirected the still upset coach into talking to himself, and released me from the discussion to recommence my refereeing tasks, while he talked the coach down. The owner of the club to which the fencer belonged and the fencer's parents both came up to thank me later. The fencer in question exhibited this type of behavior not infrequently, but their admonishions had gone unheeded as no referee had ever called the child on his actions.

I disagree that referees are "marginally trained." A significant portion of the national-level refereeing corps have a large amount of experience with fencing in general and with officiating in particular. Do referees get pushed beyond their depth? Sometimes. Do beginning referees get sent out without enough experience, training, and practice? Absolutely. But the majority are very good at a high-skill discipline. The referee in question in Albequerque has a "4" classification in the weapon in question. I don't remember who was refereeing in Sacramento, but given the stage in the competition I would be very surprised if s/he could have been classified as "marginally trained."

We put a huge number of discretionary calls into the hands of the officials. We have to rely on these officials to make the right decisions. One of the main purposes of the FOC is to ensure that an adequate number of well-trained officials are available such that appropriate people are in charge of making these critical decisions -- whether awarding a black card or determining ROW. Will mistakes be made? Undoubtedly. I haven't met many perfect people in my life. I've certainly seen considerably more black-cards-that-should-have-been-but-weren't than incidents where black cards were pulled out indiscriminantly, or to prove a point, or to score "cowboy rep" as it were.

-B

And there was another "overrulled black card" in Pittsburg this weekend for throwing the mask. Again, a competent, well trained and experienced referee officiating a bout gave a black card to a fencer who tossed her mask (DivI WF). And he recieved zero support from the FOC, who talked him into reducing it to a red card.

Maybe what the referee cadre needs to start doing is tossing this back on to the BC and FOC. They want the card reduced from a Black to a Red, then they should have to do it, and officially over-rule the referee. Don't get him to do it for them.

I hope I never ever have to award a Black card at a tournament. And I take active steps to help prevent this from happening, like clearing the area of spectators at the beginning of the bout, and, when refereeing DE's, telling the fencers what is expected of them at the conclusion of the bout. In fact this weekend I developed a little script that went something like this. "Just so there are no confusions, at the end of the bout, I expect you to have your mask in your hand, return to the center of the strip, conduct a full salute, and shake hands."

I've awarded my share of Black Cards at regional and local events, the majority to spectators who were using profanity. These are not "judgement calls" - they are consequences for improper behavior. And like I said, I hope I never have to give a Black Card at a national event (too much bloody paperwork!). But if I do, and the FOC wants to "discuss" it, and have it changed, I'll tell them that they need to do it officially, and call a Jury of Appeal (or whatever term they're using these days). I'm not going to do their dirty work for them.

The Bout Committee entrusts us with all sorts of sweeping power and the rulebook gives the referee the authority and responsibilty and NO ONE ELSE for maintaining order on strip. No way in H*LL would the FOC or BC dream of overruling a priority determination, or any other statement of fact made by the referee. And this is why "disturbing order" and "unsportsmanlike behavior" are not specifically spelled out - they are left for the referee to judge. And so when the BC decides to overrule, then they're going to have to do official protocols.

/rant off

[mrbiggs]

I've been thinking of commenting on this for awhile, but didn't want to contribute to the sustantial threadjack.

I think that unsportsmanlike behavior is fine as is, when applied moderately. There are extreme cases when a referee is far too lenient or far too strict, but most of the cases I've seen have been very reasonable.

Here's two random examples of well-given cards:
First, I was at the Pomme de Terre. Having lost an intense bout, I took off my mask, and dropped it on the floor (basically, just flipped it off my head.) It was an ungrounded strip, and came far from damaging anyone...but I did indeed drop it. The ref group 3 red carded me. At the time, I thought that was a little strict, as I didn't come close to hurting anyone, and I hadn't actually thrown the mask, but I now realize that it was a lesson I needed to learn. A group 3 red card isn't really a very strict punishment (especially since it wasn't enforced), but it was a wake-up call that I needed to get my act together, because a card-happy ref could easily have made it black.

Second, my teammate was at a tournament. He's a beginner, more or less. He'd been getting pretty upset at his bouts all day. His last DE was with a director who never, and I mean never, cards anyone. But after the bout, he spiked his mask on the strip. The director black carded him immediately, and no one had the slightest objection. It was a clearly unacceptable, damaging action.

(Okay, it's dinnertime, I might think of more to say later.)

[fencergal33]

Personally, I think the black card is seriously under-utilized.......but that's just my opinion. I'm really tired of people at local or even national tournaments displaying poor sportsmanship, and getting a pass because of who they are. It just plain sucks. Unfortunately, it happens at all levels too. It sets a bad example for everyone, especially the kids.

[Schiavona]

His last DE was with a director who never, and I mean never, cards anyone. But after the bout, he spiked his mask on the strip. The director black carded him immediately, and no one had the slightest objection.

I have seen more than one fencer spike a mask or other equipment after loosing their last DE. What good does a black card then? Is the exclusion for the whole tournament(multiple events) or just the event being fenced?

[mrbiggs]

I have seen more than one fencer spike a mask or other equipment after loosing their last DE. What good does a black card then? Is the exclusion for the whole tournament(multiple events) or just the event being fenced?

He would have earned a letter had he not been carded. (in this case)

In other cases, it nullifies your result, and probably loses you alot of respect among the fencing community. You don't want to have a ref biased against you in a bout from the getgo just because you spiked your mask two years earlier.

[Peach]

Being "fencer excluded" in a Division I can also mean you lose the national points you have earned. This, I suspect, is why people with an investement in a strong national performance might try to keep a referee from black carding one of our strongest fencers, though national points would make absolutely no difference to her given the number of international results she has.

[Frank Pratt]

I have seen more than one fencer spike a mask or other equipment after loosing their last DE. What good does a black card then? Is the exclusion for the whole tournament(multiple events) or just the event being fenced?

For one thing, a fencer who earns a black card does not earn a "place" in the resuts. So if it's a A4 tournament and a "B" fencer fencers through half a dozen pool bouts, wins half a dozen DE bouts, then looses of the final bout and earns a black card by spiking his mask, he does not finsh in 2nd place. He does not finish the tournament at all. Mr. "Fencing Excluded" takes the silver instead. The fencer therefore does not earn his "A".

Furthermore, if it is a qualifying competition (e.g. for Summer Natioanls, JOs, etc.), then the fencer does not qualify for that event (and he/she would be extremely unlikely to qualify by appeal!) As Peach said, the fencer also looses any National or International points he/she might have earned.

Lastly, once a fencer is excluded, his/her clasification can no longer used to determine the rating of the competition. So if there are 2 As, 2 Bs, and 2 Cs in a 15 person event and if any of the fecners gets a black card, the tournament is an "E" rated event, not an "A" rated event (that would make the mask spiker really popular!)

Even if you loose a DE bout, there can be a lot to gain from having your name listed in the final results!

[KD5MDK]

I have seen more than one fencer spike a mask or other equipment after loosing their last DE. What good does a black card then? Is the exclusion for the whole tournament(multiple events) or just the event being fenced?

It can be just for that event, it can be for the tournament, and I believe under the right circumstances it might be extended to further lengths. (The FIE has provision for excluding a fencer from the next 2 FIE events, for example.)

[bigdawg2121]

I understand that perhaps more cards should be given, but the fact is that Mr. Epee is right, the black card holds alot of power. Especially since the USFA is thinking of suspending fencers for one circuit event following a black card some consideration must be given to whether or not a situation really warrants the card. The situation this weekend in Pittsburgh did indeed involve a top national competitor. Yeah, she probably wouldn't have been hurt that much by the loss of the points, a bit definitely, but not that much. In watching Mike give the card, 2 things were immediately apparent:

1) The bout was being watched by two members of the FOC
2) He was very clearly reticent to give the card.

I was looking right at his face as he gave the card, and he wasn't sure about it but he gave it anyway. From where I was sitting it seemed like he did it more b/c he was afraid Sharon or Greg would get on his case if he didn't. Anyone that knows our FOC knows that Sharon especially is not likely to undermine her refs. The conversation really was more akin to, "Based on what happened, do you think that the card you gave was right or warranted? If so then let it stand, if not then do what you think is right." In the end I'd have to agree, it wasn't really a black cardable offense. Yeah the mask fell, she didn't control it, the metal strips made it sound like it might have been a hard intentional slam (though really there were no dents of the kind that would have resulted from a slam on the mask), but in the end it was more of an accidental result of raising the mask really quickly in emotional situations (the same sort of situations occurs sometimes after a fencer wins a big bout, or when the break is called in the middle of an intense bout). The mask wasn't thrown, or slammed, why black card? If anything you could call the initial black card given a result of 'doing the BC's dirty work' as it was motivated by a ref being given a chance in a big bout that he knew was being observed. The red card was a result of doing what he thought was right.

[Grasshopper]

how does this thread relate to black power?

[sabreur]

I've reffed at two national level competitions here, and had a fencer chuck a mask in each. In each case, I told the fencer and the coach that if it happened again, I'd exclude the fencer. In one case, the fencer was extremely apologetic; in the other, she was rather sullen, but her coach got her in line and kept her in line for the rest of the tournament.

In neither case did the mask come anywhere close to hitting anyone, and in both cases, it was more a "tear it off and slide it on the floor over toward my bag" than a real fling. I have to say that I find the whole "card" thing to be rather silly. When I started fencing in the 70s, there were no cards--the penalties all were there, but you just gave someone a warning, a point against, or (I guess) kicked someone out of the competition, although I don't remember it ever happening.

The emphasis on cards and penalties seems to me to put the referee more in the center than he/she should be--the ref's role, IMNSHO, should be to facilitate the fencing--that is to say, adjudicate the touches and make sure the bouts run fairly smoothly, and WHEN NECESSARY, ensure the rules are followed. The ref shouldn't be some sort of pseudo-judicial patriarch, dispensing justice through the device of his cards--it just gets in the way of the fencing.

IMNSHO.

MR

[downunder]

I've reffed at two national level competitions here, and had a fencer chuck a mask in each. In each case, I told the fencer and the coach that if it happened again, I'd exclude the fencer. In one case, the fencer was extremely apologetic; in the other, she was rather sullen, but her coach got her in line and kept her in line for the rest of the tournament.

In neither case did the mask come anywhere close to hitting anyone, and in both cases, it was more a "tear it off and slide it on the floor over toward my bag" than a real fling. I have to say that I find the whole "card" thing to be rather silly. When I started fencing in the 70s, there were no cards--the penalties all were there, but you just gave someone a warning, a point against, or (I guess) kicked someone out of the competition, although I don't remember it ever happening.

The emphasis on cards and penalties seems to me to put the referee more in the center than he/she should be--the ref's role, IMNSHO, should be to facilitate the fencing--that is to say, adjudicate the touches and make sure the bouts run fairly smoothly, and WHEN NECESSARY, ensure the rules are followed. The ref shouldn't be some sort of pseudo-judicial patriarch, dispensing justice through the device of his cards--it just gets in the way of the fencing.

IMNSHO.

MR

its people like you that allow fencers to think they can get away with it and keep doing it.

Since when are fencers allowed to have their own temper tantrum on the piste? Go outside, leave the building - by doing on the piste you are only reflecting badly on the sport.

Throwing/kicking (not dropping, that is accidental) a mask is unacceptable, dangerous, and potentially damaging to the pistes and surrounding equipment. Again you have to draw the line between tossing something into a bag etc and something more. If a mask is flung/spiked down into the piste or surrounding areas there is no other alternative except a black card.

[sabreur]

its people like you that allow fencers to think they can get away with it and keep doing it.

Kiss my ***, junior. I made it clear to both of the fencers involved, and their coaches, that the behavior wasn't acceptable, and that any recurrence would result in an exclusion. I also made sure the bout committee was aware of what had occurred and that other refs who might direct bouts with the fencers were aware.

The incidents didn't recur, the fencers (one of whom was one of the better fencers in the comp, and one of whom was the best fencer on her team) kept fencing, we didn't waste hours of time discussing whether it was really necessary to kick them out, and in general peace, propriety and good feeling prevailed.

Sometimes deterrence is better than dropping the bomb.

MR

[Allen Evans]

There is a dichotomy here between what referees are told, and what happens when they follow that advice. In seminars, referees are told that “throwing a mask” or other “unsporting” conduct is punishable by a black card. Referees use a black card in a bout for the offense and are talked into reducing it. Is it because “throwing a mask” has shades of severity and the referee was too severe? If so, this is never pointed out.

There is a difference between flipping a mask off at the end of a bout and throwing it across the room. But until the rules state that “launching a mask more than two meters from the fencer with either hand will result in a …” the referee gets to decide whether the offense warrants a card or not. Certainly if the referee can decide something as difficult as priority, they should be allowed to make a decision about a black card without the possiblity of outside interference. Controlling their strip is the mark of a good referee.

Are there referees who are “quick on the draw”? Perhaps. But they tend not to referee bouts in which a black card has serious consequences. When a referee issues a black card, it should stand, like any other penalty. If the FOC feels the referee is too quick to black card, perhaps they shouldn’t be assigning that referee to that level of bout.

I’m uncomfortable with the phrase “the mask didn’t hit anyone” as a moderator of the offense. Making damage to property or people a criteria for a black card is not very sensible. Certainly no one is ever “hurt” when the referee is called an offensive name (for which a black card was given this last weekend in Pittsburgh), but we all understand that when this occurs, out comes the card.

[Mauler]

Sometimes deterrence is better than dropping the bomb.

Car bomb?

[Mauler]

Certainly no one is ever “hurt” when the referee is called an offensive name (for which a black card was given this last weekend in Pittsburgh), but we all understand that when this occurs, out comes the card.

Not necessarily understood by Sabre referees.....

[HDG]

I’m uncomfortable with the phrase “the mask didn’t hit anyone” as a moderator of the offense. Making damage to property or people a criteria for a black card is not very sensible. Certainly no one is ever “hurt” when the referee is called an offensive name (for which a black card was given this last weekend in Pittsburgh), but we all understand that when this occurs, out comes the card.

AE is right, the way that the rules are set up, there is strict liability for these offenses; if the FIE wants to change the rules to allow for mitigation they can, but rigtht now, the rules don't countenance this kind of discretion. Actual referee practice and common-sense are another matter.

[Purple Fencer]

Kiss my ***, junior. I made it clear to both of the fencers involved, and their coaches, that the behavior wasn't acceptable, and that any recurrence would result in an exclusion. I also made sure the bout committee was aware of what had occurred and that other refs who might direct bouts with the fencers were aware.

The incidents didn't recur, the fencers (one of whom was one of the better fencers in the comp, and one of whom was the best fencer on her team) kept fencing, we didn't waste hours of time discussing whether it was really necessary to kick them out, and in general peace, propriety and good feeling prevailed.

Sometimes deterrence is better than dropping the bomb.

MR

I disagree.....you gave those fencers a freebie...which may give OTHER fencers the idea that THEY can get away with it...and when THOSE fencers chuck a mask, someone may get hurt.

Dropping is one thing....I'll even let slide a moderate spiking if the mask doesn;t go anywhere -- although I will give a warning, but if the mask leaves the fencer's immeduate area, black card...period, stop, end of diuscussion.

[Inquartata]

Why not give any warnings BEFORE the pool or DE begins?

I know of at least one sabre ref who does this: gathers all the fencers and lets them know that he will not tolerate any shenanigans and will card them if they misbehave. The pools I have been in with this ref have all been almost completely free even of complaining about bad calls.

I have enormous respect for this referee, even if I do have to squelch my urge to sigh dramatically when he misses an action of mine.

[sabreur]

I disagree.....you gave those fencers a freebie...which may give OTHER fencers the idea that THEY can get away with it...and when THOSE fencers chuck a mask, someone may get hurt.

Sam,

I respectfully disagree. Everyone who saw what happened saw me dress down the fencers involved--in one case, the guy did everything but roll on his back and show me his throat to beg for forgiveness. In the second case, the young lady remained pretty sullen, but her coach hammered her after I did, and kept her in line the rest of the day--to the point of telling her that I was right and she was wrong as she repeatedly tried to counter-attack into advance-lunges. And making sure that she shook hands after each bout and stood with her teammates when the results of the match were announced.

And I had no further problems on the strip.

I think context is important--the whole cult of giving cards is much less "developed" here. If I was directing at a US event, I probably would have given both fencers a black card, because it wouldn't have been an option, given the expectations of how referees behave. Here, there is still a bit more leeway, although giving cards is becoming much more common. That said, I've still to see a black card given at any tournament that I've participated in. And quite frankly, I prefer it that way--as I said, I think punitive actions over-emphasize the role of the director, and that the focus should be on the fencing.

It may also be that German and French fencers (which are the two nationalities I have first-hand experience with) are trained at the salle to have more respect for the rituals of the sport. People here think the requirements to salute everyone before and after each bout are a little silly, but pretty much everyone complies (even though you only saluted the ref and your opponent in fairly recent history).

Cheers, MR