French foilepee championships.

[Alan]

Some photos here :

http://websou.free.fr/101205/


I had the occasion to meet a retired foilist who was seeing for the first time
a foilepee competition. His comments :

"He was horrified and terribly bored. A french junior who never attacks
(the same who lost 2-1 to Stanek in Aix) made it to the final defeating
Attely and Le Pechoux.

Ferrari who once had a nice fencing made of movements and nice attacks
(and yes nice flicks) does not move anymore and tries counter attacks
(see picture 20)".

If the Roch timings were supposed to simplify refereing, they failed completely in this area also. There was plenty of discussions and cards for protection.


In fact, the Roch timings succeed completely for the unique goal of his Majesty : remove foil from the Olympics.

Because to be kept at the Olympics, there must be a show.
This horrible Foilepee has nothing to show.

[Laplace]

Nice photos!

[leapyear]

Classical foilists had a similar (but more intensely negative) reaction to bent-arm marching and flicks. Then a new generation came up, who regards anything else as not "real" foil. I predict that the majority will come around and embrace the new timings.

Also keep in mind that a LOT of people were turned off by flicking, particularly those spectators who were naive enough to think fencing had something to do with sword fighting. The only reason that so few accomplished fencers were anti-flicking is that the sport weeded them out early on. That will now change.

[Sciurus-Rex]

The early adjustment phase cannot fairly be used to gauge the effects of a new change. We can agree that perhaps certain highly skilled foilists are having difficulties implementing the changes; but that does not necessarily mean that the next crop of up-and-coming fencers will have the same difficulties -- after all, they have yet to refine their own skill sets, and it's much easier to learn something new than to relearn over previous patterns.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex

The early adjustment phase cannot fairly be used to gauge the effects of a new change. We can agree that perhaps certain highly skilled foilists are having difficulties implementing the changes; but that does not necessarily mean that the next crop of up-and-coming fencers will have the same difficulties -- after all, they have yet to refine their own skill sets, and it's much easier to learn something new than to relearn over previous patterns.

I think you miss completely the point.
I agree that Top foilists would adapt to anything.

And they have adapted : look at Ferrari for instance.
(do they enjoy it is another question).

My point here was that for spectators, especially the non fencers, the effect is horrible.

So if the goal of the Roch timings was to make foil more telegenic,
they have failed in this area also.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by leapyear

Also keep in mind that a LOT of people were turned off by flicking, particularly those spectators who were naive enough to think fencing had something to do with sword fighting.

you mean "modern" fencing had little to do with sword fighting. that's what classical fencing is for, right??

btw, those strips in the pics were awesome.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Originally Posted by Alan

I think you miss completely the point.
I agree that Top foilists would adapt to anything ...

My point here was that for spectators, especially the non fencers, the effect is horrible.

So if the goal of the Roch timings was to make foil more telegenic,
they have failed in this area also.

Gotcha. And this may, indeed, be the case. At least in the example you shared here. I agree.

But underlying that point is another, which I touched on tangentally: It may only be that this particular bunch of foilists are unable to perform yet at a level that is (somehow?) "more" enjoyable to watch. (Darned if I know how to define that.) Sure, they may have adapted to a certain degree and may be able to survive encounters against each other. But until more time passes and everyone works that timing into their free-flowing game so that it's second nature, it's unfair to gauge its overall value.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Alan

In fact, the Roch timings succeed completely for the unique goal of his Majesty : remove foil from the Olympics.

And what, pray tell, would he gain from that?

Originally Posted by Alan

Because to be kept at the Olympics, there must be a show.
This horrible Foilepee has nothing to show.

Counterexamples: Marathon, Triathlon, etc.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[keropie]

There are two arguments against the timing that I feel are most relevant: fencing time vs. linear time, and rule complications.

As for the first, since the beginning of sport fencing, fencing time has been held to have NO connection to linear time. An attack that is made over a half a second is held to have more priority than a counterattack made over a quarter second. However, this is no longer the case. With the reduced blocking timings, fencing time has been contrained in both foil and saber. While I understand the goal, I strongly maintain that correct attacks and ripostes (especially ripostes) can be made that get timed out by counter attacks, particularly in saber. Thus, the tighter window has essentially taken part of the obligation of the referee and freed him/her from it. While I do not find the need to return to the 1.5 second blocking times of years ago, I feel that .375 seconds is a bit short, and .120 seconds is horribly short, especially with the inclusion of extended target.

As for the second, this has most to do with the foil tip timing. The increased difficulty of foilists to make an attack has led to more counters, evasions, and covering target, increasing the burden of the referee to watch for that and evaluate on a more common basis if the evasion is legal or otherwise. More telling is the Italian federation's study on 'microbreaks,' which indicates that in order for this timing to work appropriately machines will need to look for these microbreaks and ignore them. When a rule change spawns more rules to control the situation, it's a bad rule (most of the time).

So, given that these changes have reduced the 'need' for priority (the central rule of saber and foil), and have started requiring new rules and new awarenesses on the part of the official, I feel that they have some significant flaws.

And yes, I do miss the flick, too, even though it's still doable...

[mrbiggs]

I really don't have a problem with the new timings anymore. In the more humid months (for some reason), I saw some serious equipment problems, but nowadays, everything works pretty well. Attacks nearly always register, and though attacks aren't as powerful as before, few fencers seem to be relying completely on counterattacks. Fencing looks good. People don't flick as much anymore, but they still do flick, especially on exposed shoulders.

When I fence on the old timings, it's kind of funny. I can just wave my blade around and get a light. Counterattacks and quite a few parry-ripostes are just meaningless against my flicks. It's fun, but to be honest, I prefer the new timings.

Also: photograph 12 shows a clear, old-school flick.

Does anyone else think that it's been long enough to have another poll to reasses fencing.net opinion on the timings? Or have opinions remained mostly the same?

[leapyear]

[quote=glowstix]you mean "modern" fencing had little to do with sword fighting. that's what classical fencing is for, right??
[quote]

Well, classical fencing looks more like swordfighting, which is what matters from a spectator's point of view. I imagine a real swordfight would be a lot uglier than any sport- compare boxing and the Ultimate Fighting Championships.

But looking like more like a stereotypical swordfight would help. I think it would definitely attract more people to the sport, which will help in the long run.

Most people who might consider watching Olympic fencing are bound to expect, well, a swordfight. And then who can blame them for not listening to our pained and complicated explanations about the "evolution" of the sport and the beauty of the flick?

Their eyes will glaze over, and they will change the channel.