HS team and private class conflict

[debrobjosh]

A quick survey – Does your HS fencing team allow members to continuing taking private classes/lessons during the fencing season? What if the private class/lesson conflicts with team practice?

Some background - Here in NJ, we have a large number of High School Fencing programs, along with a good number of private fencing clubs. A number of fencers belong to clubs and particate in USFA events, as well as being members of their HS teams.

We have a situation at our HS where we don’t have an experienced saber coach, and the more experienced saberists are doing the teaching. They want to continue taking their private classes so they can learn new things to teach, but that class is the same time as a team practice. The head coach prefers that they stay at team practice, saying it “wouldn’t be fair” if he let them go. So we have a conflict that we are trying to resolve.

[rocky]

He should let those saberists go take their class, as they'll improve much more if they're actually learning something, and if they improve that means they'll win more bouts. And that's the point, to win.

[shango]

I have the same problem, however, as I am a foilist, and my coach is a sabrist, I am excused from practice a day a week to go the my local club for lessons and such.

[AndrewH]

I used to fence at my highschool in NJ. Once a week I'd go to private lessons instead of school practice, and that was fine with my coach. It's really in the coach's best interests to have those fencers motivated enough to actually take private lessons, get better. That way, they have a better team, and those fencers can pass on the experience to the younger members the rest of the week in practice.

[Go? Fencing?]

Well, it depends on a few things. If the team has three or so practices a week, and they only have to miss one, then fine, let them take the lessons and they'll do better at those two practices they are there for. If they can reschedule the lessons so as not to conflict with practice, even better. They'll be much more interested in continuing fencing if they can take the lessons.

[telkanuru]

School practice was from 3-4:45, club was open from 6-10. No conflict.

Now there is practice M/Tu/Th/F, so I sometimes make the trip on Wednesdays.

I see no problem with a coach insisting you attend team practice over any other commitment if you want to be on the team.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

I see no problem with a coach insisting you attend team practice over any other commitment if you want to be on the team.

I do. If (and this is based on how I read the orignial post, I may have misunderstood the situation) the coach in question is not strong enough in the other weapons to help the fencers advance he should be the one encouraging them to develop their skills while still being members of the team. A coaches job is not to help service his own ego but to advance the skills of his fencers.

If, as it sounds, the coach has several experianced saber fencers and a bunch of new saber fencers and is not able to effectively coach the experianced fencers beyond their current level and has them running "his" saber team, then he is not doing his job as a coach. He should let his more experianced fencers advance themselves and focus on training the other fencers to a similiar level instead of forcing them to act as assistanct coaches while they sacrifice their own fencing development. If the choice he is giving them is to stay on the school team at the detriment of their own fencing while doing his job or advance as fencers he needs his *** kicked.

[telkanuru]

If you want to be on a team, you should be prepared to make sacrifices for the team. Moreover, I definitely don't see this as a binary situation, ie. I don't belive it to be absolutely impossible to get lessons otherwise. Talk to the good sabre coach and see if there are other times you can get lessons. If you have enough people, see if he/she will come there. We have a sabre coach who will drive from Boston to Amherst (2h) if we can get 5-7 people lined up and pre-paid for lessons.

In short, a team requires dedication. Being a better fencer on a team means you should help the lesser ones.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

If you want to be on a team, you should be prepared to make sacrifices for the team. Moreover, I definitely don't see this as a binary situation, ie. I don't belive it to be absolutely impossible to get lessons otherwise. Talk to the good sabre coach and see if there are other times you can get lessons. If you have enough people, see if he/she will come there. We have a sabre coach who will drive from Boston to Amherst (2h) if we can get 5-7 people lined up and pre-paid for lessons.

Wow, I think this is the first time that we have had an actual hard and fast disagreement!

First of all I think your ideas for arranging alternate forms of coaching/private lessons are excellant. However, there are lots of reasons why that may not work. Having said that, I want to focus on a couple of things you said.

The first is that being on a team requires sacrifice. I agree that it can. However that sacrifice should be for the good of the team. If you are part of a collegiate or HS team and that conflicts with a local USFA event for example, then I would agree that your first commitment should be for the team. However I would disagree that this seems to apply here. The coach seems to be telling them that they have to give up being better fencers, and therefore better teammates, for the sake of either his ego or doing his job for him (coaching the less experianced fencers). I just don't think that is right from a coach/student ethics standpoint and it is rather shortsighted as he is likely to lose his strongest team members.

In short, a team requires dedication. Being a better fencer on a team means you should help the lesser ones.

I also have a problem with this line of reasoning. The original poster said that the private lesson/class time is the same as "a" team practice, meaning that there is more than one. The saberists in this situation are only wanting to skip one practice a week to better themselves as fencers and to be able to teach more advanced/better lessons to the other fencers on the team. That is dedication to me. Being willing to pass on what you pay good money for and put time and effort into translating to your teammates. I don't get how you think it is otherwise. The stated reason their coach does not want to let them go is that "it would not be fair". Fair to who? Him because he would be forced to better himself as a coach (work on improving his saber coaching) and actually do his job? Fair to the students who are willing to pay their own money and spend their own time and effort improving as fencers and then passing on that knowledge to their team mates?

I just don't get the logic in this. It seems pretty simple to me. You have a coach who cannot help some of his fencers beyond their current level (and this is a situation all but the very best coaches will run into with good students) and is either incapable or uninterested in developing his coaching skills to where he can. Instead he makes the better saber fencers handle the coaching to make up for his shortfall in this area of fencing knowledge and is in effect punishing them for being better saber coaches than he is by hurting their development as fencers by or hurting the team by chosing to become better fencers and being forced out of the program. Either way, to me anyway, the coach is remiss in his duty as a coach and the fencers are suffering.

Granted, one sided story, half the facts, some things being assumed, blah blah. But if the case is as we seem to be understanding it, or using this case as a hypothetical, then I feel my opinions to be valid and the coach in question to be very very wrong in this...

[telkanuru]

Well, it seems to me that what "isn't fair" in the coach's mind is that by going somewhere without their teammates, they're effectively giving a message of "we don't need to waste our time with you", which is extremely detrimental to team unity, not to mention future preformance once the good people leave. IMHO if "I have too much homework" isn't an excuse (which it isn't on any team I've been on), then "I want to get lessons somewhere else" isn't, either.

For reference, here are the attendance policies from my HS and my Uni, both of which I view as reasonable

HS: For Varsity Starter Status
- 5 practices a week, must attend 4
- Absence for illness is excused

Uni: In order to fence in any competition
- 4 practices/week
- must attend all practices 2 weeks before a comp.
- may be excused from 1 practice/week for a test, etc. when in the 2-week period

HS seasons especially tend not to be particularly long (~3 months), and therefore this is not so great a detriment to the skill level of the fencer as it might seem at first. I also grant that the coach should become better at sabre, but using more skilled students as a stopgap method is completely reasonable.

I should also note that I am not above being selfish. JOs (my last) conflicts with a major New England collegiate competition, but I'm going to Hartford. Of course, I did tell my team captain this back in August. If, however, I insisted on missing one practice a week to go back to Boston to take lessons with my coach there, because my collegiate coach has a completely different style, I wouldn't be allowed to fence, and I don't think that to be unreasonable.

[debrobjosh]

Having started this discussion, I would like to add some details and put in my own $0.02.

The crux of the problem is that neither of the two existing coaches are saberist. The main coach, who’s background is foil, believes he can teach/direct saber, but the team’s two experienced (2-3 years) saberist, don’t have any confidence in his skills.

Last year, when the varsity team was just starting up, the new coaches focused on foil and epee, which was their strength. The two young, rabid saberist, almost in self-defense, taught a lot of newbes, and lead the small men and woman squads for 4 out the 5 team practice session. On Wednesday nights they skipped team practice and instead attended their regularly scheduled private group saber class. They also found time to fit in private lessons during non-practice time.

This year, the now established coaches, issued a mandate that varsity fencers need to attend all practices. But since the main coach was still not able to find a saber coach, the now three saberist wanted to continue the practice of training at their club one night a week. The main coach did not want that practice to continue, citing team morale, fairness to other fencers, etc.

That’s where the conflict now stands. Now I believe if there was someone to teach saber to the team, I could go along with the coach’s approach. These young saberist still need seasoning (both are only E rated) and guidance. But they are not getting that, at least not specific saber guidance.

I believe the coach is being unreasonable. Until he can get a knowledgeable saberist in to teach, I think you he should make some accommodation to allow outside lessons, without penalty (he has also talked about stripping these fencers of their Captain rank.)

I can’t believe this is a unique problem. I’m sure that in any sport where an individual might have a private coach (tennis, swimming, etc), there is going to be a conflict between the team’s needs and a individual’s needs. Is this just a case that until you have proven yourself (and become highly desirable), you got to toe the line or go out on your own?

[Go? Fencing?]

Since they're still making it to four out of five practices, and this is something that has already been going on and now the coach wants it to stop, I think that adds to him being a bit unreasonable. If it was a newly-proposed idea, then he would certainly have the right to shoot it down. That said, if the two really want to be on the team, they might just have to compromise and drop the group class, since they are able to have private individual lessons that don't conflict with team practice.

[AndrewH]

Circumstances considered, this coach is screwing himself and the rest of his team.

If the best on the team are not given any opportunity to improve, no one else on the team will improve either if you don't have a sabre coach.

What happens when the two sabrists decide they'd rather get better on their own and continue fencing outside of HS, and quit the team? Now not only does the coach not have a competent sabre team, but he has no one to teach the new recruits.

[Mauler]

I do have some familiarity with the HS fencing scene in NJ, albeit from an outsider's perspective. What you've encountered is nothing new. I believe what the affected fencers need to do is honestly look at what it is that they want out of their experience in HS fencing. Team fencing (scholastic or collegiate) is not for everyone. The same goes for the head coach. He needs to take an honest look at his place in the big picture.

HS fencing can be a great, fun experience for all involved. It provides the kids with an opportunity to learn a great sport, experience the life of a sports team, and it also provides an avenue for recruiting potential athletes who might otherwise never have gotten involved with fencing. Active scholastic circuit in an area generates the competitive interest that can help sustain the local fencing instruction industry, which is rather extensive in NJ.

It is a coach's perrogative to choose what "style" of coaching he will employ. In this case, it sounds like he's more of an administrator-type coach than performance-oriented. So be it. He's the one who was hired for the job, and in a HS circuit, it's pretty much a crapshoot what you're going to get. Qualification isn't exactly near the top of the list on criteria.

HS circuit doesn't exist to create great fencers. It doesn't have a budget, nor a need, for great coaches. What matters is that HS students have a place to go afterschool for a healthy activity, and learn valuable social skills while they are at it. Already accomplished fencers certainly won't improve their own fencing by their involvement with their HS team, but there are plenty of non-fencing related benefits they can derive from their experience as HS team athlete. Plus, some of the positive experiences can be a great direct preparation for their collegiate team life in the near future.

Having said that,

Personally, I think the coach in question is being absolutely foolish by not taking advantage of phoenomenal resources he has available -- highly accomplished professional coaches in professional fencing clubs, which there are oh so many in the area! Half-an-hour with any of these coaches is hell of a lot more valuable than entire week's practice at the school!

The fencers in question, also seem to be putting more weight to the weekly one-day group class than it deserves. They are not going to become great fencers by taking one group class a week in a private club and practicing everyday at HS team. That is not the intention of the HS fencing experience. If they feel motivated enough to advance their training, there is plenty of excellent opportunities available locally that they can take advantage of in their own time.

[kalivor]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the team coach demanding that they come to the team practice. I'm very confused by those who think otherwise.

A school team has a very tight focus, usually during a limited timeframe. Practices (in my experience) tend to be far more regimented than those in outside clubs. Coaches set a minimum amount of practice time, mandatory practice nights, etc, as a matter of course.

Originally Posted by Go?Fencing?

Since they're still making it to four out of five practices, and this is something that has already been going on and now the coach wants it to stop, I think that adds to him being a bit unreasonable.

How so? There used to be no problem with drinking and driving. Now there are laws making it illegal. Does this change make that rule unreasonable?

This isn't a mid-year rule being implemented. This is something that happened the last year, was thought about, and a new rule introduced. It seems very reasonable to me.

Originally Posted by debrobjosh

I believe the coach is being unreasonable. Until he can get a knowledgeable saberist in to teach, I think you he should make some accommodation to allow outside lessons, without penalty (he has also talked about stripping these fencers of their Captain rank.)

I think that the coach is not being unreasonable at all. In fact, there's nothing to indicate that the coach lacks the skills to teach these fencers. They're not incredibly experienced or advanced fencers, from how it sounds -- they've just got big egos, and have decided that their high school coach has no ability to teach them.

I can't believe that these fencers still have a captain rank. It should be stripped. A captain needs to be able to get along (to some degree) with the coach. The fact that there's a conflict which has spilled out beyond those involved speaks to the fact that the fencers involved should not be captains on their team.

Also important to note is that nowhere has it been mentioned that they can't have outside lessons, only that they can't skip a practice for them. While the former is arguably not in the best interests of the team (and I'm tempted to argue that it would be in the team's best interest, considering the attitude that has been instilled in a handful of young fencers with low ratings), the latter -- not giving a group of fencers a privledge of skipping a practice everybody else must attend -- is an incredibly reasonable demand for a coach to make.

Originally Posted by debrobjosh

I can’t believe this is a unique problem. I’m sure that in any sport where an individual might have a private coach (tennis, swimming, etc), there is going to be a conflict between the team’s needs and a individual’s needs. Is this just a case that until you have proven yourself (and become highly desirable), you got to toe the line or go out on your own?

No, it's not a unique problem. The solution is for the two coaches and the athlete to sit down and determine the best training schedule for the athlete AND THE TEAM. Solutions could include the second coach coming to an occasional team practice, and/or the athlete attending private lessons at a convenient time, but should not allow the athlete to blow off team practices that they would otherwise be required to attend.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

What happens when the two sabrists decide they'd rather get better on their own and continue fencing outside of HS, and quit the team?

From the sounds of it, the team would be better off.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

<snipped a lot of arguments as to why the coach is dumb>
Granted, one sided story, half the facts, some things being assumed, blah blah. But if the case is as we seem to be understanding it, or using this case as a hypothetical, then I feel my opinions to be valid and the coach in question to be very very wrong in this...

No kidding, one side of the story -- a very biased one, from what I can tell, and I don't even know the first thing about it.

Here's what I see:

Last year, a Varsity Team was started at a high school. It had a coach, and a couple of fencers who had been fencing for a year or so, and took a sabre class outside of the school team. As these two fencers worked very hard, and were willing to share what they'd learned with their teammates, the coach let them do their thing, and concentrated on developing the foil and epee teams -- creating a broad base as it were.

That being done, the coach now wants the team to be a team -- the sabre team sounds like it has very much separated itself from the rest, and the coach can coach sabre (or at least, so he believes) at least beyond the "E" level at which his top sabreurs find themselves.

The teenaged sabreurs balk at this. How dare he tell them how to practice! Their Wednesday night class at XXX club with YYY coach teaches them everything they need to know about sabre! How else would they have their Es! How dare he interfere with their training! Who does he think he is? Their coach?! These fencers are different than the others! They deserve special treatment!

To me, it boils down to this: The coach has told the fencers what he expects of them, if they're to be on the team. He expects more than last year. The sabre fencers aren't happy about this, and have decided to complain, claiming that participating in Wednesday night practices will hurt their fencing. Rather than discuss this with the team coach and the club coach, and find a way to best improve themselves and the team, they've clearly appealed to the other members of the team (and, ultimately, the internet at large) fostering discontent and hurting the team further.

It's a bunch of BS.

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by AndrewH
What happens when the two sabrists decide they'd rather get better on their own and continue fencing outside of HS, and quit the team?

Originally Posted by kalivor

From the sounds of it, the team would be better off.

I agree with this statement and with pretty much everything telkanuru has said so far. It seems that alot of people in this thread are taking "What's best for the team" to mean "what will increase our chances of winning the most" - and I don't think that's true.

In the meantime - Is anyone else concerned that these "experienced sabre fencers" don't have any idea what they're talking about?
I've seem alot of, frankly pretty terrible, sabre fencers scoff at the abilities of high level coaches. How much weight should we lend to these "only E rated" fencers judgements on the coaches abilities?
If someone is a good coach, and it doesn't sound like anyone is disputing their abilities to coach foil and epee, then they can help. ESPECIALLY for low level fencers, I think.
Kids with two years of experience and an E rating should not have such an elitist attitude. Maybe the team would be better off without them.