NAC "C" Pittsburgh. Will be enough strips for Friday?

[misha]

I do not know who the organizers are... so new thread

DIV1ME > 220 entries starts at 8:00 AM - require 32-33 strips for the 1st round of pools

DIV1WS 66 entries starts at 8:00 AM - require 10 strips for the 1st round of pools


Will they have 43 strips available?
Are there going to be enough referees Friday 8:00 AM ?

If not - they will have 2 options, which both are not good:
1) Delay women event, which makes Olympic medalists unhappy
2) Have 2 flights of pools for DIV1ME, as it is not bad enough already


Probably if it is impossible to have 43+ strips
it would be better to change DIV1WS starting time beforehand....
Just a thought


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[Mauler]

This is a non-championship Div I event. Which means repechage to boot, no?

[rcmatthews]

While I am sure they appreciate your advice, I think the people in charge have done this before.

[Mauler]

Wait...... non-champ Div I..... Two rounds of pool, right?! Doh!

Anyways, I went back to the initial contact of potential referees and the count was 91. And I'd say about 40 of them are "full-time" referees, with no obvious conflicting obligations at this event (i.e. competing, coaching). The rest seem to be "part-time" referees of varying expertise -- some very capable, others not as much so. The latter will probably available one or two days to fill in.

So referee shortage shouldn't be a problem at this NAC.... hopefully. Plus, this being a 3-day NAC, hopefully we can avoid the fiasco from a certain Div I NAC from not too long ago.... where most of the referees left on Monday after lunch!

[misha]

While I am sure they appreciate your advice, I think the people in charge have done this before.

Yes, they done it before.
I am trying to make things better while we can, not to complain after it is done... That's all.

Typical DIV1ME with 150-180 fencers starts at 8 AM and usually ends around 7 or 8 PM
Having 220 will add to this time, it is understandable...

But if there is not enough strips, there will be 2 flights of pools, which may be a disaster...


Some recent history:

...
The Junior WF event, finishing around midnight Saturday (the gold medal bout was officially sent out at 11:59pm)
...
The size of the fields was enormous. Repechage, adding about 3 hours to each of a dozen events, absolutely worsens the problem. But this was the largest number of strips used outside of Summer Nationals (NACs are typically 28 or 32 strips, Albequerque had 36)
....
-B

Given current starting times we need 43 (!) strips

...
There were enough referees, but certainly not enough strips to accommodate the numbers.

My fencer in JWF waited 3 hours after her pool to fence her first DE, then 2.5 hours after that to fence her second. Then things moved along more quickly, but it's hard to stay "up" and positive for that length of time. The seemingly endless format resulted in some final results reflecting not the best fencers, but the ones with the most mental and physical stamina for waiting.

Something needs to be done about the length of these events. It's hard on the fencers, but even harder on the refs. An event running 13.5 hours doesn't exactly bring out optimum performance in either.

Mills

...
And boy did we work. I personally worked about 49 hours this weekend over the four days of the event. We all worked like absolute dogs.

One of the senior guys calculated it out for his work on Sunday. Three pools of 7 (one event having been flighted). Two DE tables to the repecharge round, two repecharge events, and a finals bout. That came out to something like 5000 different "decisons" (determining ROW, corps-a-corps, covering target area, stepping off strip, did the hit arrive before the time expired, etc, etc, etc). All made in a split second. Its very hard work, believe me.
...

[misha]

Wait...... non-champ Div I..... Two rounds of pool, right?! Doh!

Right. Two rounds of pools, direct DE to 32, repechage to 8, direct DE in the Final 8


.

[edew]

Let's see...2 rounds of pools for epee: 4 hours total. Seeding to DEs of about 80 fencers about 20 minutes. DEs from 128 to 32 (with 80 fencers), 1.25 hours. DEs with repechage from 32 to 8: 5 hours. Final-8: 2 hours.

Total time: 13 hours. Done by 10PM for the last ones.

Better to run Brazilian with two rounds of pools and DEs with no repechage. It's the 5 hours of repechage that kills everyone, and really, there's not much benefit, as the top fencers get to the finals in three quick bouts while the rest fight off for the bottom 4 of the final-8. And it's usually the same 4.

Ok, there's a bit more randomness in epee, but rarely any such randomness in the foil competitions.

[KD5MDK]

Repechage is French for "Makes event take forever" I believe its been said.

[Eduardo]

Better to run Brazilian with two rounds of pools and DEs with no repechage. It's the 5 hours of repechage that kills everyone, and really, there's not much benefit, as the top fencers get to the finals in three quick bouts while the rest fight off for the bottom 4 of the final-8. And it's usually the same 4.

What is "to run Brazilian"?" I'm Brazilian and I never heard of it

Please tell me it's not bribing the referees

[oiuyt]

What is "to run Brazilian"?" I'm Brazilian and I never heard of it

Please tell me it's not bribing the referees

It's exactly what the rest of EDew's sentence said:

"Better to run Brazilian with two rounds of pools and DEs with no repechage."

Brazilian is a format. Round of pools, 100% promotion to another round of pools, 100% promotion to straight DE's.

Various "modified Brazilian" formats exist as well with cuts of different severities at designated times.

-B

[edew]

I prefer the "bribing the referees" alternative, if that's what he wants "Brazilian" to mean.

[oso97]

hrmmm... Yea, it will be rough, but...

Nothing will be as bad as Albequerque. Oh god, have I just put a jinx on the whole thing?

[JEC]

What is "to run Brazilian"?" I'm Brazilian and I never heard of it

Please tell me it's not bribing the referees

Oh, that's the secret of the Panam results!

[misha]

hrmmm... Yea, it will be rough, but...

Nothing will be as bad as Albequerque. Oh god, have I just put a jinx on the whole thing?

Please keep in mind that Eric's calculation does not include running pools in flights...
Otherwise add another 2 hours minumum for a total of 15 hours...

To avoid this there should be at least 43 strips or re-arranged starting times
and according to Brad "NACs are typically 28 or 32 strips, Albequerque had 36"


.

[oso97]

Please keep in mind that Eric's calculation does not include running pools in flights...
Otherwise add another 2 hours minumum for a total of 15 hours...

To avoid this there should be at least 43 strips or re-arranged starting times
and according to Brad "NACs are typically 28 or 32 strips, Albequerque had 36"


.

In Albequerque, the average day was ~15 hours. Some were longer ....

[misha]

In Albequerque, the average day was ~15 hours. Some were longer ....

I am talking about ONE EVENT being more than 15 hours...
DIV1ME ...

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[edew]

Misha is referring to 15 hours just for epee.

If they were to double flight, they should double flight the WS, since that's a faster event to run. Double-flighting is not as long as two rounds of pools, so add an additional 1.5 hours if there's double-flighting. Of course, if they're really short on strips, then the ME HAS to be double-flighted, and that would mean adding the 1.5 hours AND dead time for ME fencers while they run some other events. In that case, figure about 17 hours.

Personally, I think the whole 2-pools+DE+repechage at 32 is a big waste of time. Events such as these are supposed to be competitions for points standings to make national teams, not a long day's workout program. Training camps where fencers bout 10 or 15 or 20 bouts per day over the course of 3 or 4 days is where the work on stamina and endurance comes in. At a competition, it's win or lose.

Run these events more in line with how championship events are run: Pools -> DE no repechage.

[KD5MDK]

It gives most people more fencing, perhaps. Given that in some areas the only time you see fencing at your level is at a national event, perhaps they want to extend it for them.

[oso97]

I am talking about ONE EVENT being more than 15 hours...
DIV1ME ...

.

Yep, quite often that happened.

I remember starting refereeing in the pools of one event (CMF), then heading over to do Y14WS. Did pools and a couple of DE's of that event, then moved on to Y14MS, did pools, DE's and a semifinal. Then noticed that CMF was still going on. Several of us who had made the same journey were called over to the CMF event to work as referees and assesurs in the finals.

Similar insanity took place in the JME event. Again, I started out there in pools, did a table of DE's, and then was called away to work some other event (can't remember what). When we finished that event, at around 11 or so, the JME was still going on...

If memory serves, the JWE event started before and ended after all other events on its day as well.

So, no, these kind of insanely long days (with the same event being both the first to start and last to end) are not unheard of. Welcome to the fun.

[edew]

It gives most people more fencing, perhaps. Given that in some areas the only time you see fencing at your level is at a national event, perhaps they want to extend it for them.

No it doesn't. First off, the Div I event is limited to Cs and higher, who already have a fairly good exposure to fencing at fairly strong levels. Second, the "newbies" get their 5 or 6 bouts in the initial pool and will head on home, never to enjoy the DEs, much less another pool round. Of course, they can watch the fencing, but watching and participating are not the same, and it's wholy possible to stage fencing so that lots of people can watch it without requiring that those same people compete in the event.

Your argument lacks consistency.