software

[Charlie Cove]

Does any one out there know if there is any software for a pool - pool event? If so were would I find it

[Jeeves]

The software you are looking for is called point control. Check the topic listing by Barry Tice further down this board. You can down load the software from that posting.

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Jeeves ]</p>

[Charlie Cove]

I took a look at it and I did not see a pool - pool feature.

[Cyranox11]

Hi Charles
I doubt you will find existant (useable) software for a pools only event: it is a somewhat archaic method of determining a competition result. It is also a rather protracted method...
However, you can use Point Control (or En Farde) for that matter and simply start a new competition at the start of each round. That should work...
BTW Why do you WANT to go this route???

[BarryTice]

Point Control doesn't do pool-pool at this point -- at least not directly. The only way to use the software for that would be to start off with one event, run through the pools, and then create a new event using people's results from the first event to place them in the second.

At best, this is cumbersome.

I plan to rewrite Point Control from scratch (as soon as I have the time...) in Java (to make it work on Mac, Linux, and Unix), with much more flexibility in how the events are formatted (multiple pool rounds, single eliminations, double eliminations, round robins, etc.). But between work, family, and grad school, there's not much time to play.

I've not ever run the following, but you might look at:
<a href="http://wavespace.waverider.co.uk/~craigl/download.htm" target="_blank">http://wavespace.waverider.co.uk/~craigl/download.htm</a> (Page not recommended for the easily offended)
<a href="http://www.fie.ch/utilitaires/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fie.ch/utilitaires/default.htm</a> (This will let you download En Garde, which has been a standby of the FIE forever. It's DOS-based (or at least used to be; I haven't seen it running in a while, and the current version is 7.21), with English resource files available for those of us who don't speak any French.

Good luck.

-- Barry Tice
Point Control Software

[Cyranox11]

Yo Barry
En Garde is now Windows based (together with the English files, a HUGE improvement).
If I were you I wouldnt bother with the pools only option, I suspect this will only make the programme unnecessarily (sp???) complicated and larger than necessary...
I like it pretty much as it is but being mac etc compatible would be a huge improvement.
Whilst the restart a new comp method is cumbersome, I suspect it will suffice considering the comp format is cumbersome anyway...

[Charlie Cove]

I need pool - pool for a colligate event

[Peach]

We often do pool-pool for local events--with a small tournament it gives everybody more fencing.

[BarryTice]

Charlie --

If you do choose to use Point Control to run pool-pool events by using the results of the first pool as a ranking mechanism to create a second event, you need to be careful about how you enter club names for the second event. Point Control will shift fencers between pools to avoid club conflicts, which is appropriate in the first pool, but may not be desired in the second one.

To avoid this trouble, either give each fencer a unique club name or give each fencer the same club name when you enter people for the second pool round. Otherwise the pool distribution may not be as you would otherwise expect it to be.

-- Barry Tice

[soos]

maybe there s something provided by french fed :

<a href="http://www.escrime-ffe.fr" target="_blank">www.escrime-ffe.fr</a>

but for sure its in french heheh

[edew]

I have mentioned this to Barry a while back. I have not seen the Point Control in action, although I have checked out the website.

If Barry (or anyone) wishing to write a bout-management program, make it as modular as possible.

Here's some desiderata:

* Access an existing DB of name/club/division/etc., allowing for updating of any of such fields (especially the person's classification). Make this as general as possible, possibly including info such as Bios and other personal stuff. Read below for the reasons.

* Each "round" consists of four main items:
1) The incoming competitors
2) The seeding sort order
3) The competition format for the round
4) The outgoing competitors (i.e., those fencers who "win" enough to go to the next round).

Then, when running the program, one could choose something like:

round 1:
All fencers; standard seeding; pool; top 60%
round 2:
from previous round; seed from last round; pool; top 80%
round 3:
from previous round; seed from last round; DE; winners
...

There are basically two formats for a round: pool or DE (repechage is just a form of DE). For repechage, the information will be:
from previous round; seed from last round; DE; losers

The output will be the fencers sent to the losers bracket. They will meet together. The winners go to the next round, which will compete against the losers from sound other table, which you can also specify:

(repechage table)
winners from previous round + losers from round X; boolean seed + seed from round 3 (say); DE; winners

The only thing different between a pool round and a DE round is the format for the scoresheet. The former has a matrix looking table; the latter has a ladder looking table. But as far as the computer and computation is concerned, both is a list of bouts between fencers.

Anyway, if the program is made modular, then it's easy to create any form of tournaments. You can do a pool, then DE to 32, then add some fencers (like the Div I NACs are doing) to the next round, DE again to 24, another pool to 12, another pool to 6, best 4 out of 6, DE with repechage. Whatever you like.

A round is a portion of a tournament. You only care about who are the people going into the round, how they're sorted, how the round will be conducted (pool or DE, say), and who comes out of it.

As for the Bios and other personal stuff, suppose this program works well. And suppose we have good media coverage. Well, if Joe Blow makes it to top-8, you can just click on Joe Blow's name and all his information would be available, his age, country of origin, club representation, handedness, likes and dislikes, maybe even a thumbnail headshot.

[BarryTice]

edew --

That's kind of what I'm working toward with the next generation. I'll be keeping a record of all people who have ever been in an organization's events, so when it's time to enter people in a particular event you can either select them from the list, or enter an FIE/USFA number and have it populate, or enter a new person. Ratings/rankings/scorings would be editable on that screen, as would club and weapons fenced.

As for the incoming/outgoing round data, that's the concept from which I'm planning as well. The next generation should allow as many as eight or nine rounds (though I'd hate to run a competition like that), with each round being individually selectable as pool, DE, or round-robin (which I've seen used at the finals for the U.S. Modern Pentathlon trials). Users will also be able to specify how many people advance, and how to select them (e.g., pools of 6, top 3 from each pool advances, or pools of 6, top 50% from event advance). And there will be options for single eliminations, double eliminations, single eliminations with repechage, mixing fencers back into the batch, etc.

That's the plan, anyway. But there's only so many hours in the day.

-- Barry Tice

[swordsen]

Be sure to have the ability to deal with a fencer withdrawing from an event.

[BarryTice]

Yes, swordsen. That is certainly a must. Point Control has that capacity now, removing the fencer from the pool round as though he/she had never been there. From the DEs, removing a fencer is as easy as promoting the opponent.

-- Barry Tice