ethics question

[grotto]

ok here is the deal: you are at a qualifying event. and you and another fencer are tied, and are to have a fence off to see who qualifies. The bout committee comes and asks you "are you planning on going to the event? because your opponent is. Essentially asking you if you want to forfeit your chance.
Was it right for the committee to ask?

[Agent_V]

Poll is majorly flawed, because question asks if Bout committee was correct to ask, but answer choices reflect what would be the correct thing for you the fencer to do.

Alexander

edit: with regards to the first question, no the bout committee should never ask the fencer to forfeit - that pretty much removes the meaning of the word "competition".
As to the second, it depends on what mood I'm in if they ask me...

[oso97]

Bout Committee should be strung up and shot on sight. Favoring the opponent is a black card. I wonder what encouraging such behavior is?

[sabreur]

You haven't given us two critical pieces of information:

1. Do you in fact not intend to participate in the following event?

2. If you do not intend to participate in the following event, is the bout committee aware of this?

And I suppose, since I don't fence in the US, I have to ask, is it an either/or situation--I personally would be pretty loth not to fence off for a place, but I also would be pretty loth to deny someone a place at an event they wanted to attend and that I had no intention of attending. Why not fence off, then let the other guy go to the next event, regardless of who wins the fence off?

To go back to your original question, I think it would be wholly out of line for the bout committee to pose the question if they didn't have prior intelligence that you were not planning on attending the follow-on event.

But I think the best solution is for there to be a certain number of places allotted to a region for the next highest level event, and if one of the people who qualified can't attend, you allow the first non-qualifier to take their place.

[Mr Epee]

ok here is the deal: you are at a qualifying event. and you and another fencer are tied, and are to have a fence off to see who qualifies. The bout committee comes and asks you "are you planning on going to the event? because your opponent is. Essentially asking you if you want to forfeit your chance.
Was it right for the committee to ask?

Funny story...

Maybe there is another side of this story - Why were you participating in a qualifier event for a competition in which you had no intention of competing?

Should someone compete to intentionally keep others from qualifying?

Your side
My side
The Truth

Unless you are willing to attempt real objectivity, and paint a more complete picture, then my reasonable assumption is that you are trying to be destructive, because your feelings got hurt.

NC JO Qualifiers.

Edit: Sabereur who has been demonstrating great insight lately has posted while I was typing. :-)

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I come to an event for the sake of fencing. I want as much as I can get. If somebody cant be me, he shouldnt even be going to JO's. I would be offended if someone wanted me to forfeit for any reason.

[shlepzig]

The bout committee should not ask. It is not their place to decide who or whom might go to an event that was qualified for.

Also regardless of the outcome. If I rember correctly you can forfeit a qualifying spot after you have earned it if you do not wish to attend and your division or section or local group can allocate it to the next fencer in line. So it does not matter if you win or lose, you still have options and don't have the loss for the tournament and the loss of a potential rating.

Besides, if you qualify you might decide to go.

So the point is moot.

Shlep.

[MyraTrue]

I look at this situation from the experience of a team captain, but not as a highly ranked fencer (Thus most likely never to find myself in this situation). I know I've rearranged attendance at events with my captains capacity with final goals in mind. I know when a fencer can't attend the conference championships, and another fencer can, that that second fencer will have to attend a previous tournament to go.

So my answer to you is, if you weren't planning to go on, this seems a reasonable question. But I also agree with the above post to say that the bout committee had a right to ask, and you had a right to pick whatever response you felt fair to you. Me... well, I'd have forfeit.

[fencergal33]

I think not. You are there to fence, regardless of the outcome or qualification. I was at this particular events you speak of as a referee. I think it's ridiculous that the bout committee would have asked you to do such a thing, and had I known about it, I would have protested on your behalf.

[Mr Epee]

The functions of the Bout Committee include the strict but complete organization of the different events and the obligation to see that the Rules are adhered to; they cannot decide on any departure from the Rules except when circumstances arise in which it is absolutely impossible to apply them.
The Bout Committee is responsible for the technical organization of the competitions and for ensuring their smooth running.

Hence:
(a) It checks technical installations;
(b) It checks the entries;
(c) It draws up the pool sheets and direct elimination table, according to the rules for individual and team events;
(d) It allocates referees at the suggestion of the Refereeing delegate, as well as the strips;
(e) It supervises the start and progress of the event on the various strips;
(f) It examines complaints and solves them;
(g) It checks results with the help of the Organizing Committee;
(h) It prepares the subsequent events sufficiently in advance to be able to warn the fencers, officials and judges;
(i) It supervises the dissemination of results.

[AndrewH]

Extremely unethical for the bout committee to ask. By doing so, they are basically placing pressure on you to forfeit.

If the other fencer asks you personally/privately, thats another story. Nothing wrong with that and you have every right to refuse.

I threw a DE once in a JO qualifier b/c I knew I couldn't go. Felt like the right thing to do.

[CvilleFencer]

So here is the deal as I understand it. They did not ask you to withdraw or throw the bout. They did nothing wrong and may have had a reason to ask, even if it was just for their own personal information. If they had advocated your withdraw their would have been an issue. If you chose to read more into the question(s) that is your decision but you risk being wrong.

If you don't plan on going to a qualifier should you even be there to fence? For me the answer is yes, most definetly. It helps raise the level of competition, it increases the number of people who can qualify if more people participate (usually) and it acts as sort of Fencing Darwinism.

What do I mean by Fencing Darwinism? For the Sum Nats qualifier I usually drag out my foil gear. Do I plan on going there to fence foil? No. May I beat out someone who would go? Possibly. Would I feel bad about it? No. I fence foil maybe three times a year now. If they can't get by me, I figure I just saved someone a lot of expense and heartache. They can take that $500-1000 they would have spent on the trip, take some lessons, train hard and next year or so be a qualified representitive who deserves to be at X competition not because the people who could have beaten them "took mercy on them" and withdrew, but because they earned the right to fence in that comp and represent their club/division/state/school at whatever tourney it happens to be for.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Which competitor is prettier?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Which competitor is prettier?

Hehehheheh.... you're awesome.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Which competitor is prettier?

Hehehheheh.... you're awesome.

[oiuyt]

Maybe there is another side of this story - Why were you participating in a qualifier event for a competition in which you had no intention of competing?

Should someone compete to intentionally keep others from qualifying?

Why SHOULDN'T a fencer compete in qualifiers for events s/he has no intention of competing in? It's another opportunity to fence. If it weren't a qualifier, but merely a local tournament would the fencer fence? If so, then s/he is completey justified in fencing it when it's a qualifier.

The second question is an interesting, albeit likely completely hypothetical scenario. Should someone compete to intentionally bar others from qualification. Mmm. Not at all what we're talking about, but a potentially interesting conversation. Perhaps rephase it to be when, if ever, is it acceptable for someone to compete for the purpose of, and with the intention to, take up a qualification slot, barring someone else from qualifying.

Sub-topics on when the person being so blocked is known or not known in advance.

Related, although less controversial topics on when auto-qual'd people should/should not fence in qualifiers (given that they do not chew up slots and actually represent a net gain of 1/4 of a qualifier). More tenuously connected but still related topic on when people should fence D1A.

Throwing bouts to allow someone else to qualify is fairly similar to throwing bouts to allow someone else to win a medal or earn a classification. It should never be done and implying to someone that they ought to do so is wrong. Dishonest fencing, or encouraging such behavior is cheating and it's morally repugnant.

-B

[downunder]

back on topic.

If it was a qualification event and there were 3 places, and i wasn't attending the event - i see no reason why i would fence off for 3rd. I've already lost the semi final, i'll just take 3= and he can have the place.

[chiz]

ok here is the deal: you are at a qualifying event. and you and another fencer are tied, and are to have a fence off to see who qualifies. The bout committee comes and asks you "are you planning on going to the event? because your opponent is. Essentially asking you if you want to forfeit your chance.
Was it right for the committee to ask?

As I see this… The bout committee asks if you intend to continue to the next event? How did the group present this to you, one person or the entire group? I’m not sure if the answer is important just wondering. I don’t know the relationships of the fencers, coaches and BC at the event. But the bout committee has no reason to ask the question in the first place.

As a fencer I would take great exception to the question. The BC is directly trying to influence the outcome of the event. That question itself takes away the level strip on which I fence. How should I answer? Will the referee call the bout evenly or will the BC’s influence show through? Has the refereeing already effected the event up to this point? Yes, I would take great exception to this question.

I don’t have my rule book handy right now but if memory serves, if you deliberately effect the outcome by not fencing to your best ability that is a black card. All right I went and looked. T.87 first paragraph, The competitors must fence faithfully…
Then in t.88 Competitors must fence to their utmost ability in a sportsmanlike manner until the end of the competition … etc and etc in the end it’s a black card for collusion and further a black card for the other fencer for profiting from collusion. So both fencers would get black cards. Neither you nor the other fencer would go, if there is collusion. And I think, clearly there is the appearance of collusion in this question.

I think I would begin with the head referee for the event and the event organizers and work my way up. Next the Division Chair, then the Section Chair then the USFA Board.

I think questions like this are very bad for fencing.

My 2 cents

Chiz

[Larrison]

ok here is the deal: you are at a qualifying event. and you and another fencer are tied, and are to have a fence off to see who qualifies. The bout committee comes and asks you "are you planning on going to the event? because your opponent is. Essentially asking you if you want to forfeit your chance.
Was it right for the committee to ask?

No, absolutely not. *If* they wanted to ask that of a fencer they must ask it after the fencing is over. If they ask it before, they are setting up a potential conflict of interest in their motivation in the tournament.

At the least, it would be appropriate for someone with some significant standing in the division (or section, or national office...) to talk to the bout committee and politely, firmly, and in private chew them out using short words with few sylables and adding pithy and pointed comments. In the most, it would be grounds for disqualifying the bout committee from participation in any way from future competitions, depending upon the specifics (which are not known at this point).

This is WRONG.

[downunder]

As I see this… The bout committee asks if you intend to continue to the next event? How did the group present this to you, one person or the entire group? I’m not sure if the answer is important just wondering. I don’t know the relationships of the fencers, coaches and BC at the event. But the bout committee has no reason to ask the question in the first place.

what the hell?

in the majority of world fencing, and at all elite competitions, all competitions have an equal 3rd ranking.

If it is a qualifying tournament, it would make sense for them to ask, perhaps that if you weren't attending, it would make no sense to fence off for third.

I think if it is a direct "barrage" (like outside the d.e. structure) for qualification, and you know that you won't be there, it makes no sense at all for you to fence it.