Epee overtaking Foil.

[ReverseLunge]

I have noticed that after the timing changes in foil there have been many more epee related threads and posts. Foil used to be the art of the thinking ninja. Now it has become a messege of violence from the counter attacking retards. I noticed many more epeeist the tournaments now too.

Who the hell wants to do foil without the flick or marching attack? It just a inferior form of epee now

[Katman]

I don't give a **** about the flick or marching attacks: it's not why I fence foil and never was. I like scoring touches with the point with right of way and various other nuances.

I'd just rather the stupid foil go off when I hit dead-on straight.

Edit: *****ing aside, I still enjoy foil.

[Style]

Well all I can say about the flick is . . . don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The flick was a direct result of the heavy tip on top of a very flexible blade. Obviously this is not how it was meant to be (ever!) and the flick was unique only to recent modern day sport fencing.

Not that I'm against fencing being a sport, but let's at least keep some of the roots.

Foil should have more of an exchange between blades, and that's what makes it fun.


If you suck at foil now that the flick is gone, then you have to truly examine your skills as a foilist. It just means you were only good while you could exploit the equipment.


But, the marching attack isn't gone. You just have to actually have skill now to pull one off. You can't just go go go go go FLICK! And adjust your flick according to distance. You have to go go go go go assess the timing and distance and land a nice direct hit.

[Aeric]

Well all I can say about the flick is . . . don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The flick was a direct result of the heavy tip on top of a very flexible blade. Obviously this is not how it was meant to be (ever!) and the flick was unique only to recent modern day sport fencing.

Not that I'm against fencing being a sport, but let's at least keep some of the roots.

Foil should have more of an exchange between blades, and that's what makes it fun.


If you suck at foil now that the flick is gone, then you have to truly examine your skills as a foilist. It just means you were only good while you could exploit the equipment.


But, the marching attack isn't gone. You just have to actually have skill now to pull one off. You can't just go go go go go FLICK! And adjust your flick according to distance. You have to go go go go go assess the timing and distance and land a nice direct hit.

Quoted for truth.

[kalivor]

Well all I can say about the flick is . . . don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The flick was a direct result of the heavy tip on top of a very flexible blade. Obviously this is not how it was meant to be (ever!) and the flick was unique only to recent modern day sport fencing.

Not that I'm against fencing being a sport, but let's at least keep some of the roots.

Foil should have more of an exchange between blades, and that's what makes it fun.


If you suck at foil now that the flick is gone, then you have to truly examine your skills as a foilist. It just means you were only good while you could exploit the equipment.


But, the marching attack isn't gone. You just have to actually have skill now to pull one off. You can't just go go go go go FLICK! And adjust your flick according to distance. You have to go go go go go assess the timing and distance and land a nice direct hit.

?

I could flick with a stick -- no flexibility, nor any extra weight at the end. If you had the ability to do it right, then it didn't matter much what you were using. People who did it wrong weren't much of a challenge to beat, anyways. People who constantly flicked to the back -- well, when you're dead set on hitting the target which is furthest away from you, you're going to get smoked.

Was the flick part of the modern sport game and not a part of duels 100+ years ago? Absolutely.

Could I draw blood by flicking with a duelling epee from 100+ years ago? You bet I could.

Can I still flick in foil? Yes, though not as easily ... there are fewer openings for a successful flick with the new timings.

That said, I agree with Katman. Flicking had nothing to do with why I fenced foil, which is why I'll continue to fence foil.

It was definitely more fun with the old timings than it is with the new timings, though.

[Grey]

I tend to think the problem with the flicks fall more in the area of inconsistent callings. A person with an extremely flicky blade (Ever seen a flickmaster?) when coupled with an inconsistent calling referee is a nightmare... that is, if you happen to get into this unfortunate scenario pre-new timings.

As for shifts in posts from foil to epee... it could be a temporary thing. Perhaps the epeeists are more active as of late?

[rvergara]

... A person with an extremely flicky blade (Ever seen a flickmaster?) when coupled with an inconsistent calling referee is a nightmare...

absolutely true. i think the problem arose with the lack of good referees, with the issue of the counter attack on the preparatation of the flick. in my opinion, instead of changing the timing to benefit the counterattacks, the FIE should have had a congress/clinic for foil referees and define a consistent way of calling such attack. add to the rulebook, "the flick has/hasn't priority over the counterattack..." or something along those lines

[Style]

?

I could flick with a stick -- no flexibility, nor any extra weight at the end. If you had the ability to do it right, then it didn't matter much what you were using.

Perhaps we have a different idea of what a "flick" is.

There is a difference between a coupe and a flick.

A coupe may be similar in fashion and can be done with a stiff blade (or stick), but a flick is when you whip the blade so that it bends in an arc so that it can hit a target that normally wouldn't be available (i.e. the back). You certainly could not make a stick arc in that way.

That's just semantics though.

[kalivor]

Perhaps we have a different idea of what a "flick" is.

There is a difference between a coupe and a flick.

A coupe may be similar in fashion and can be done with a stiff blade (or stick), but a flick is when you whip the blade so that it bends in an arc so that it can hit a target that normally wouldn't be available (i.e. the back). You certainly could not make a stick arc in that way.

That's just semantics though.

Yes, there is a difference between a coupé and a flick -- the former is a blade evasion, in which the attacker evades a parry by moving around the tip of his opponent's blade. The latter is a method of scoring a hit, achieved by first extending (or, rather, beginning the extension), then throwing the point onto target, rather than having the point lead the way (as with a more traditional thrusting attack).

A coupé can be followed with either a flick or a thrust. One does not score a hit with a coupé though, anymore than one does with a disengage.

The flex of the blade is irrelevant to the flick, though it certainly does help to make it more effective.

[Katman]

It's possible to score with a flick without making a huge preperation. It's done with an exending arm. A good flick shouldn't have much if any wind-up.

I think it would be a nightmare to give the director discrection over what a flick is or what it isn't.

I learned how to parry them and adapted my distance and stopped caring. Straight hits not going off get my goat.

[keropie]

Certainly with any blade that is reasonably safe to use (i.e, won't kill the first person I hit with it), I can flick the blade enough to put the tip on the target. Now, that having been said, the biggest issue I have with the new timings is the fact that it doesn't reward some straight hits, and it rewards too many counterattacks/remises. If the FIE had managed to create a machine that rewards the same quality of direct attacks as the old machine, but reduced/eliminated the flick somehow, while I would be disappointed (hey, I love flicking), I would find it MUCH easier to accept. The fact is, though, that some straight actions that clearly hit are not rewarded, and one of my most successful actions these days is attack/remise. Attack/remise as a primary option HAS NO PLACE IN FOIL. It violates the simple idea of right of way, that the parry should significantly improve your position. While I can't remise against everyone, I can remise against plenty of people.

I watched the final bout of the Penn State Open (Max Garret Open, I think technically, but whatever), and four out of the last ten touches were closed eyes extending hoping praying remises or counterattacks. No attempt at timing out, no evasion, nothing but hope the machine likes you better than them. That sucks.

Finally, if the flick is so evil and awful, why haven't they screwed with epee yet? People get hit in the back there, too. You can't tell me that any duelist of the times would have tried it.

Ah well... hopefully something will happen to change some of it, be that either a true evolution of fencing (counterattack and remise need to move down the list in foil), or someone in the FIE buying a clue. I won't hold my breath though.

[Elemental]

add to the rulebook, "the flick has/hasn't priority over the counterattack..." or something along those lines

A good ref can tell difference between an attack into preperation and a counter attack vs a flick attack.

The problem was that fencer A would advance from across the strip with their blade pointing skyward and the ref would give them priority. Holding the blade in preperation of a flick is not an attack and doesn't have priority.

Many refs had trouble with this mainly b/c of the ambiguity of motions at high speed (*flick*flick*flick) and inconsistant interpritation of the rules.

The new timings simplify the equation by taking some of the burdon off of refs.

IMHO high level fencing is much more fun to watch with the new timings but some lower level fencing is looking kinda ugly.

[Grey]

Finally, if the flick is so evil and awful, why haven't they screwed with epee yet? People get hit in the back there, too. You can't tell me that any duelist of the times would have tried it.

As for the epee, I believe it is more of technical design that makes the flick less effective as compared to foil. Foil has a thin square blade compared to epee which has a triagular shaped blade, given it greater strength and stiffness. Also to take into note is the tip is different compared to foil and requires 2mm (right?) of depression before it goes off where as in foil it may only go off whenever the tip is depressed (or so it is regulated in the country where I compete).

The larger guard also reduces the possibilites of flicking on the wrist or forearm as a simple raising of the guard or the hand would effectively parry most flicks and allow for a bind and counterattack.

With regards to skill level, a bout with skilled fencers are always delightful to watch regardless of new or old timings.

[keropie]

As for the epee, I believe it is more of technical design that makes the flick less effective as compared to foil. Foil has a thin square blade compared to epee which has a triagular shaped blade, given it greater strength and stiffness. Also to take into note is the tip is different compared to foil and requires 2mm (right?) of depression before it goes off where as in foil it may only go off whenever the tip is depressed (or so it is regulated in the country where I compete).

The larger guard also reduces the possibilites of flicking on the wrist or forearm as a simple raising of the guard or the hand would effectively parry most flicks and allow for a bind and counterattack.

It's not so much of a question as to which is harder, but flicking clearly does happen to epee, and not just to the hand. I rarely fence epee (I'm a priority guy, what can I say), but when I have, I've hit people over the top down to the butt. So flicking DOES happen, and if one of the arguments against the flick is that it's 'nontraditional' that should apply to epee and foil equally. By the same token, the cut with back of the blade in saber (beyond the false edge) and the cut with the side of the blade should be equally reviled. The only argument I can see against the flick in foil is the officiating issue. Ideally, we'd just get better officials, but I can see how the FIE is leery of that (it's awfully hard to control, you know?), but from what I've seen the changing of the timing has had no positive affect on officiating. I see as many poorly called actions now as I did then, be they withdrawn marching attacks that still turn on a light, bad calls of malparre (sp?), inability to recognize a line compared to a counterattack, etc. I really feel like if the FIE had honestly tested the timings in the junior events as was voted on, the conclusion would have been to not have them continue or spread. Of course, now we can't really compare, because we have no control group vs. experimental. Well done FIE. Bravo.

[kalivor]

As for the epee, I believe it is more of technical design that makes the flick less effective as compared to foil. Foil has a thin square blade compared to epee which has a triagular shaped blade, given it greater strength and stiffness. Also to take into note is the tip is different compared to foil and requires 2mm (right?) of depression before it goes off where as in foil it may only go off whenever the tip is depressed (or so it is regulated in the country where I compete).

The epée requires 1mm of travel. The travel required for foil can be as small as you can manage.

I'm not sure what the point here is, though. Why would the travel matter much? It's the same as saying that it's harder to hit with a thrust in epee ... you need 1mm of travel, and 750g of pressure. It's rare to see a near hit fail because of travel and force requirements, though. A flick hit doubly so, as they tend to land with more force.

The larger guard also reduces the possibilites of flicking on the wrist or forearm as a simple raising of the guard or the hand would effectively parry most flicks and allow for a bind and counterattack.

Well, yes. That's the point of the larger guard -- to protect the hand and forearm. That doesn't eliminate flicking in epée anymore than the fact that "a simple raising of the guard" at the appropriate angle slightly higher than one's shoulder stops foil flicks to the back of the shoulder.

What makes flicking less common in epée is that most epéeists -- if they choose to try to learn to flick -- will get the concept beaten out of them in the learning phase. Initially, flickers will usually seriously bend their arms -- this is death in epée, where in foil the opponent would often go on the defensive. Even once one is good, you must still expose your hand before the flick is delivered, meaning that a good counterattack can win out over a good flick, in epée.

I've hit people in the back in epée, though. The hard part isn't the hit (though it's undeniably harder to do than it was with a foil on the old timings) -- it's arriving before their counter-attack or remise gets you.