A-rated fencing for free?

[Sciurus-Rex]

Should A-rated fencers get some sort of registration discount at tournaments just for being so gosh-darned good? Are they important enough to deserve a price break the other fencers don't get?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Yep.... I know that at a certain Atlanta club, A's fence for free in their tournaments.

[fencergal33]

We've talked recently about doing this at my club's monthly tournaments. I think the idea behind it is to encourage more of the high level fencer to show up, thus making the tournament even more highly rated. I see pro's and con's to this policy. I've seen this done at a couple of clubs (A's fence for free, B's for $5 or something), but to be totally honest, I'm not sure it really helps in attracting more or better people. It seems to me, that if you are or aren't going to a tournament, regardless of rating, you decide that on your own. The deciding factors seem to be more about drive time than price. Most tournaments run from $15 - $25 in my section, so that's what people are used to paying.

[little_old_me]

I've got mixed feelings on the issue. I like the thought of encouraging higher rated fencers to participate. It gives the tourny a higher rating and thus encourages other, lower rated fencers to compete. However, they're just fencers. If an E has to pay $20 for the tourny, why shouldn't an A? Heck, the A doesn't necessarily have more experience than the E. I really don't know how I feel about this.

[remise]

This actually backfired in one club. During my travels, "B" rated fencers and higher were given a free pass, while "C's" and under had to pay. The end result, since there were more "U's" and "E's" than the higher rated fencers, was a boycott. The "C's" and under merely competed at other nearby clubs, and after only one season, the club with the 'free pass' policy quickly reverted to charging equally for everyone.

[Craig]

I think a lot of it has to do with the dynamics of the fencing community in that area. In Atlanta, there are a few As and when I was more active we were all training to go to NACs or large regional events.

In the local events, we would generally all fence each other in the top 8 and top 4, so it became a $20 practice for us. Rather than pay $20 to get in a few hard /competitive bouts we would sometimes opt to just come in one extra night during the week and stage our own pool tourney. If we knew there were some strong fencers from outside the club coming to the tourney, we would generally show to get the opportunity for some extra bouts.

Providing a discount to the higher rated fencers gives an incentive (or, removes the disincentive from participating), and having them in the field will help raise the level of the tournament.

If the club owner/operator has made the call that higher rated fencers = more chance of more fencers overall at the tournament, then it's a pretty easy call. I don't think that it's anything more than a marketing decision.

Craig

[Sciurus-Rex]

It's amusing to see an A-rated fencer actively ask an event organizer to let him fence for free because of his rating, even though the registration info listed no such incentive for the other six As who already paid their fees.

[Fechter1]

As an A fencer, I expect to get something for my money, just like everyone else. If I show up at a tournament that I have to pay for, I expect to get at least one or two quality bouts out of it. (the higher the entry fee, the higher my expectations)
If there is no entry fee for me, I'll fence, if only to get a good workout (I'll limit my hand actions and work entirely with the feet, for example).

I have no problem shelling out $ for a good tournament, but if I'm the only A, and the next rating is a C (again, an example) that I know I can beat without great effort, don't expect me to stay and fence just "to make the tournament better". Ya gotta give me an incentive to pay the entry fee.

[Larrison]

Hmm.. last tournament I went to, the charge was $10 entrance. Most clubs around here have a $5-10 floor fee, so unless you're going to a club you've paid a annual (or quarterly) membership in, the charge for a tournament or floor fees is the same or just about.

This tends to encourage the A's and B's to show, since its not going to cost them anything more to go to someone else's club to "practice" instead of a tournament, and with a good pool of folks then they get some practice with folks they've never seen before nor fenced before.

There are also "D and Under" or "E and under" or "Unrated only" tournaments about every month within a reasonable drive from here, with the last D & Under I went to having over 64 fencers in it -- so its not like there isn't enough folks fencing at the lower levels.

[Jvanhousen]

It's amusing to see an A-rated fencer actively ask an event organizer to let him fence for free because of his rating, even though the registration info listed no such incentive for the other six As who already paid their fees.

I think in addition to being amusing, it would also be tacky. However, offering a pass to A's in some events (ones that you have reason to believe could benefit by more A's) could be in the fencer's best interest if it was going to make the difference between having an A or B final. Organizers are basically asking to 'borrow' their A rating for a day so that others have a chance of being at the 'right place, at the right time'. I bet here on the left coast, saber fencers would be more than willing to pay a bribe if an A or two would show up.

[nyacfencing]

There are already plenty of reasons for high-level fencers not to fence in local tournaments. There is little incentive for an A to fence in a C-level tournament, and paying to do such is just another disuassion. Reducing or eliminating their entry fee is really a benefit to everybody. It results in:

1. More competitors - Not only the high-level fencers getting the discount, but let's face it, more low-level fencers will show up to fence with them
2. More revenue for the club from the event
3. Stronger local competition general translates into more people, practice, fencing time, and the production of better fencers overall
4. A bigger and better challenge for everybody else

It is really a decision every club must make based on their circumstances. At some clubs this may make all the difference, and as outlined by others, at some it might be problematic.

[keith]

There are already plenty of reasons for high-level fencers not to fence in local tournaments. There is little incentive for an A to fence in a C-level tournament, and paying to do such is just another disuassion. Reducing or eliminating their entry fee is really a benefit to everybody.

This all seems to assume that there is a large group of As who would be willing to set aside their scheduled training (focused on the national level) for a freebie local competition where they can beat up on the local C,D,E and U fencers for ****s'n'giggles - a clear benefit to one and all

It results in:

1. More competitors - Not only the high-level fencers getting the discount, but let's face it, more low-level fencers will show up to fence with them

Not necessarily, some Es and Us won't bother and most of those in the middle are often constrained more by free time. The dedicated souls who compete week in week out aren't affected.

2. More revenue for the club from the event

Making it up on volume eh? Got a hot IPO tip for us.....

3. Stronger local competition general translates into more people, practice, fencing time, and the production of better fencers overall

Isn't this what club fencing is about?

4. A bigger and better challenge for everybody else

... once again assuming that there are all these As who will suddenly attend (and also all those Bs and Cs who will also appear so allowing you to make it up on volume).

It is really a decision every club must make based on their circumstances. At some clubs this may make all the difference, and as outlined by others, at some it might be problematic.

Well why not just cut the entry fee for everyone. Might induce more warm bodies to show up?

[nyacfencing]

This all seems to assume that there is a large group of As who would be willing to set aside their scheduled training (focused on the national level) for a freebie local competition where they can beat up on the local C,D,E and U fencers for ****s'n'giggles - a clear benefit to one and all

True, but if the A's aren't willing to set aside their time to attend, offering an incentive that nobody takes advantage of is of no harm.

Not necessarily, some Es and Us won't bother and most of those in the middle are often constrained more by free time. The dedicated souls who compete week in week out aren't affected.

True, but then again there is no effect either way and therefore no harm for enacting the incentive.

Making it up on volume eh? Got a hot IPO tip for us.....

Not an IPO tip, but a general tip: Your jokes are not funny.

Isn't this what club fencing is about?

Absolutely not. Many practice at clubs in order to fare well in competitions. Once they are able to do well at the local C or D events, there is no challenge and no reason to practice harder. The stronger the local events, the more incentive for people to practice. This isn't just about fencing, but a general guide to humanity: The bigger the challenge, the larger the effort.

... once again assuming that there are all these As who will suddenly attend (and also all those Bs and Cs who will also appear so allowing you to make it up on volume).

I have seen the addition of a single A at a local competition in areas where there are little or no A's or B's (or sometimes C's) drastically increase the field size. So I don't think that "there are all these A's" is a necessity.

Well why not just cut the entry fee for everyone. Might induce more warm bodies to show up?

Supply and demand. Clubs should set entry fees at a level that makes sense given the region and situation.

[edew]

I think in addition to being amusing, it would also be tacky. However, offering a pass to A's in some events (ones that you have reason to believe could benefit by more A's) could be in the fencer's best interest if it was going to make the difference between having an A or B final. Organizers are basically asking to 'borrow' their A rating for a day so that others have a chance of being at the 'right place, at the right time'. I bet here on the left coast, saber fencers would be more than willing to pay a bribe if an A or two would show up.

A bottle of Jim Beam for Junior to show up at an event? What you say is quite true for saber. We're slowly working on it, though. The MF and ME are now self-sustaining. There are enough As that those who attend will get a good workout no matter what.

[edew]

There are already plenty of reasons for high-level fencers not to fence in local tournaments. There is little incentive for an A to fence in a C-level tournament, and paying to do such is just another disuassion. Reducing or eliminating their entry fee is really a benefit to everybody. It results in:

1. More competitors - Not only the high-level fencers getting the discount, but let's face it, more low-level fencers will show up to fence with them
2. More revenue for the club from the event
3. Stronger local competition general translates into more people, practice, fencing time, and the production of better fencers overall
4. A bigger and better challenge for everybody else

It is really a decision every club must make based on their circumstances. At some clubs this may make all the difference, and as outlined by others, at some it might be problematic.

While some of the top-top level As, like a Kellner or Tiomkin can skip attending local tournaments, I think a good number of other As should attend even a C-level competition. AND, they should pay to enter.

Park of learning how to fence is to learn how to deal with being the top-dog. And take a risk in the experience (by paying). While my one personal anecdote may not apply to everyone, I think it has some training value.

Several years ago, I had a very stale A. I had an A95 and it was 1999. I attended an alumni tournament where I was the top-ranked fencer by far. I think the next highest fencer was a D or a newbie A. For a long time, I hadn't won a tournament. Indeed, I hadn't won one since 1993 (the UCSD Blade-Runner foil was the last event I won up until then; I've re-earned my A95 by placing top-8 in some PCC or something like that). Since 1993, due to various personal stuff, I had some jitters and just couldn't put the finishing touches for the win. I helped make plenty of other fencers become As during those years between 1993 and 1999.

Then, at that All-Cal alumni event, I finally won the event. It was a piddling C-rated event, if that. But, the following month, I won the Pacific Coast Championships, then some Bay Cup events, and then the Duel In The Desert, and since then, I've had plenty more victories.

Was it due to better coaching? Possibly. But I've won the Vet NAC last December without receiving any lessons since July 2001. And I have been giving lessons since 2003.

So attending an easy event, even for a top-level fencer (i.e., A-rated) has benefits. And it should be one where the fencer has to pay the entry fee. Put the risk. Otherwise one can't feel the experience properly. And there's more of a chip on one's shoulder: you gotta be able to beat a bunch of Cs or lower fencers, right? Then beat them.

Making top-8 at a large event is fine, but winning is something else. One must get used to winning, not doing well enough.

[keith]

True, but if the A's aren't willing to set aside their time to attend, offering an incentive that nobody takes advantage of is of no harm.

...and...

True, but then again there is no effect either way and therefore no harm for enacting the incentive.

Not really, after all for those As who make a regular effort to show up it's a nice bonus. Lets not forget there are many large local tournaments that get good A attendance anyway (assuming there are any local As).

Not an IPO tip, but a general tip: Your jokes are not funny.

..and your blithe assumptions are irritating, but I guess we will both survive. If there are no extra As who are going to attend this costs money.

Absolutely not. Many practice at clubs in order to fare well in competitions. Once they are able to do well at the local C or D events, there is no challenge and no reason to practice harder. The stronger the local events, the more incentive for people to practice. This isn't just about fencing, but a general guide to humanity: The bigger the challenge, the larger the effort.

In regions where there are no strong opens, there are no strong opens - simple. Free A entries doesn't solve that problem, perhaps free return air fares to and from NYC might help though?

I have seen the addition of a single A at a local competition in areas where there are little or no A's or B's (or sometimes C's) drastically increase the field size. So I don't think that "there are all these A's" is a necessity.

... Ah so I'm wrong then.

[fencergal33]

I think everyone seems to be forgetting that the number of A's (and high level ones at that) in NYC is vastly greater than the number in, say, North Carolina. When I first started fencing 6 years ago, there was one A in saber here! That's it. In NYC, you have the benefit of practicing with some of the best people in the country! That doesn't exist in most other places. Where I live, most of the A's and B's fence in as many local tournaments as possible, just because it's cheaper than flying everywhere.

[sabreman]

I was the last Men's A sabre fencer in the Capitol Division. That was ten years ago. In Epee there are many A fencers some 50 plus years old (In Men's Sabre I can only think of 4 nationally over 40). In sabre it is very tough to get a local A rated non mixed tournament outside of NY/NJ (if they show).

[tkrivosh]

As far as I see it, the only reason to offer a free entry to an A fencer is to get the level of the tournament up and make it more attractive to others. My club can easily put up an A2 sabre tournament (mixed, I have to admit) just from members along, so this additional encouragement is not needed. We want to run tournaments that everybody wants to come just because they can count on strong fencers, excellent referees, and good organization, and not because they can fence for free.
Good referees don't come cheap, hence the entry fee.
Since they referee A's just as they referee U's I don't think that additional discount is fair. Not to mention that A's are more likely to earn prizes (which are also an expense.)

[Sciurus-Rex]

If I knew an A-rated fencer thought he was so very special as to charge me to fence with him -- because that's what the bottom line is -- I'd never give him the satisfaction.

"Make it worth our while to fence lowly sub-As?"
Right. I got your discount right *here*, bub.