Foil Rule

[SpHeRiaN^_^]

Just to clarify a rule.

When 2 fencers engage, and at super close quarters, Fencer A turns her non-sword arm in front and then hits Fencer B. Regardless of whether Fencer B hits or not... I would just like to ask if it is true that the bout should be halted immediately after Fencer A turns his/her non-sword arm in front with no penalty imposed or should Fencer A be given a yellow card for blocking of target? I was told back in my country that it is the former and in some Cadet competitions some fencers have even been given points awarded when they hit like Fencer A do against fencers from my club when the president is a little inexperienced. What should it be?

[Purple Fencer]

Hmmmm....I haven't really updated my knowledge of the rules recently (not doing a lot of directing these days), but are you talking about fencer A reversing the shoulders (which is now legal for foil) or simply moving the non-weapon arm in front?

If it's simply moving the arm in front....halt....yellow card for covering target, no touch.

But if it's reversing the shoulders, I'm not sure how to call it...that arm's gotta hang somewhere....

Anyone??

[SpHeRiaN^_^]

ok.. imagine a right handed fencer... when i say that the left arms come fwd.. he/she becomes in a position as if it is a left handed fencer's en garde position.. i cant really put it well down in words.. but get the picture? it become like he/she is a left hander.. and he/she draws back his/her blade and attempts to hit...

Sorry if i cant put it in better words... =D

[tbryan]

Hmmmm....I haven't really updated my knowledge of the rules recently (not doing a lot of directing these days), but are you talking about fencer A reversing the shoulders (which is not legal for foil) or simply moving the non-weapon arm in front?

If it's simply moving the arm in front....halt....yellow card for covering target, no touch.

But if it's reversing the shoulders, I'm not sure how to call it...that arm's gotta hang somewhere....

Anyone??

Actually, "reversing the shoulders" is no longer illegal in foil. It used to be, but they removed that rule...um...one or two years ago, I think. As long as the fencer does not turn his back on his opponent or cover target, he may bring his non-weapon shoulder in front of his weapon shoulder. Of course, reversing the shoulders without covering target is difficult for many fencers, so they get carded anyway.

[Black Jeebus]

Fencer A is allowed to turn his shoulder as long as he remember to lift his arm thereby exposing the target area along the left side of his body. If doesn't do so then the bout is halted, Fencer A's touch is annulled, and he is awarded a yellow card (or if the director is feeling lenient and it's A's first offense a warning).

In summary you can reverse your shoulders as long as you remember to lift your off-weapon arm so that you are not covering target.

[SpHeRiaN^_^]

oh ic... thanks everyone.. those ppl in Singapore keep telling me the rule is taken away.. it is i noe... but i said even if it is taken away.. when they reverse their shoulders, their arms are blocking the target ! and they keep insisting it is legal... and even award some of the touches against our fencers... guess i can have something to argue about in next year's competition...

[tbryan]

ok.. imagine a right handed fencer... when i say that the left arms come fwd.. he/she becomes in a position as if it is a left handed fencer's en garde position.. i cant really put it well down in words.. but get the picture? it become like he/she is a left hander.. and he/she draws back his/her blade and attempts to hit...

Sorry if i cant put it in better words... =D

Yes, this used to be called "reversing the shoulders," and it used to be illegal in foil. The rule used to be that the weapon shoulder had to remain in front of the non-weapon shoulder.

But that rule was changed a couple of years ago. Foil fencers may "reverse the shoulders" as long as they do not cover target, turn their back, cause a corps-a-corps, etc. If the fencer manages to switch to this position and not break any other rule, the director should not call halt. (He might call halt for some other reason, but it shouldn't be just because a fencer brought her non-weapon shoulder in front.) Many fencers use this technique when fencing at close quarters and score touches while doing it. Perfectly legal.

Now, the biggest problem is that it is difficult to reverse the shoulders without covering target. If the fencer is leaving her non-weapon arm dangling down in front of her lame, a halt should be called, a card given for covering target, and any touch she scores annulled. Fencers who are good at scoring with this action either pull their non-weapon arm way back or raise it up in the air to leave the lame open. See, for example,
this photo of the World Championships from fencingphotos.com

EDIT: In the photo, the fencer on the right has reversed his shoulders, but notice how he keeps his non-weapon arm pulled back far enough so that he doesn't cover target.

[Purple Fencer]

Edited my post to say "now allowed" re reversing the shoulders....that's what I get for typing when I'm not quite awake yet!

[downunder]

(or if the director is feeling lenient and it's A's first offense a warning).

no such thing.

[kalivor]

Fencer A's touch is annulled, and he is awarded a yellow card (or if the director is feeling lenient and it's A's first offense a warning).

The yellow card IS the warning.