Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Jvanhousen · 11-11-2005, 11:39 PM

I've been testing a product on my blades for the last month and have found it to be far and away the best thing for the job.
It's called Top Saver by Empire Manufacturing, a liquid that is designed for protecting table saw tops/similar machinery etc. 8oz pump-spray bottle cost me about $15 in the local tool store, but it goes a long way. You basically wet some Scotchbrite with this clear liquid and ... well, I guess you 'Scotchbrite it', let it dry for a minute or two, apply once more, let dry a few, then buff it.

From the bottle: "This brilliant conditioner will embed itself into the metal surface structure creating a deep rich finish that will last for weeks."

Have to admit that it does exactly what they say. I use a hard golf-type case and the only thing sweaty that gets put in it is my mask, which usually would cause a fair amount of rusting, but this stuff has basically eliminated that problem. A little stinky when applying, and a little pricey, but you can't have everything. I'm embarassed to admit how long I put up w/ rusty blades, and how much this sounds like a dishwashing detergent commercial.
Check it out:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...28013&v=glance

i'mnottelling · 11-11-2005, 11:58 PM

Jvan, which weapon do you fence? I'm interested to see how glue will adhere to the blades after they are treated with this stuff.

Sounds like a great find. Keep us updated!

i'mnt

Jvanhousen · 11-12-2005, 12:21 AM

Foil and epee. I would be surprised if any residue survived my acetone vat of death.

Mergs · 11-12-2005, 10:11 AM

One would think that you would apply this after you have glued you weapon, therefore the compound wouldn't get into the groove. Secondly, unless this stuff has the penetrating power of 120mm hyper-velocity, fin stabilized, depleted uranium kinetic energy round (which, BTW is an awesome sight to behold when it enters the front slope of a T-72 after traveling more than two miles, and exits the rear of the vehicle taking everything inside it, engine included, with it!), I don't think that much would be left on the blade once you grind out the glue before re-wiring.

Purple Fencer · 11-12-2005, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

One would think that you would apply this after you have glued you weapon, therefore the compound wouldn't get into the groove. Secondly, unless this stuff has the penetrating power of 120mm hyper-velocity, fin stabilized, depleted uranium kinetic energy round (which, BTW is an awesome sight to behold when it enters the front slope of a T-72 after traveling more than two miles, and exits the rear of the vehicle taking everything inside it, engine included, with it!), I don't think that much would be left on the blade once you grind out the glue before re-wiring.

Nothing like proffessional detachment, huh?? I'd hate to see what was left of the crew compartment....or any crew inside at the time!

Mergs · 11-12-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Nothing like proffessional detachment, huh?? I'd hate to see what was left of the crew compartment....or any crew inside at the time!

T-72 is like any other Soviet era tank, turret to hull connection sucks. When the round hits it generally cooks off the ammo and blows the turret off, along with the crew (gunner and TC at least). Especially whenthe auto-loader system it uses also uses 'caseless' ammo, i.e., no cartridge to protect the propellent. Bad. M1 has basically the same kind of ammo, but they store it behind blast doors and have blowout panels on top in case it does cook off.

Anyway, we digress from the original topic.

foilz · 11-12-2005, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

Secondly, unless this stuff has the penetrating power of 120mm hyper-velocity, fin stabilized, depleted uranium kinetic energy round (which, BTW is an awesome sight to behold when it enters the front slope of a T-72 after traveling more than two miles, and exits the rear of the vehicle taking everything inside it, engine included, with it!), I don't think that much would be left on the blade once you grind out the glue before re-wiring.

Whaaaat???

Mergs · 11-12-2005, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foilz

Whaaaat???

Joke, son, it's a joke.

The penetrating comment was that even metal is porus, not as much as a sponge or paper, but still, certain chemicals can penetrate into the surface and if they get into the metal, they could possible affect the bonding ability of glues, even CAs.

i'mnottelling · 11-13-2005, 10:33 AM

I had three epee blades that I couldn't get any type of glue to stick to. I scrubbed, scraped, and acetoned but still couldn't get a wire to stay in it. Oddly they don't have any rust on them after five years.

i'mt

Mergs · 11-13-2005, 04:27 PM

What kind of blades are they? I would think that if you put them through an acetone bath and ground the groove out, you would be to bare metal, and then be able to get a good surface to adhere to. Berry strange, ja?

i'mnottelling · 11-14-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

What kind of blades are they? I would think that if you put them through an acetone bath and ground the groove out, you would be to bare metal, and then be able to get a good surface to adhere to. Berry strange, ja?

They were Russion blades. I think the grease they were shipped in was axle grease from a T-72!

i'mnt

EPEEDAD · 11-17-2005, 11:59 PM

Here is a link on a awesome product from a recognized corrosion treatment company...safe, eco friendly and reasonably durable.

Fencing is a corrosive type of sport with "sweat (salts) and "skin oils"

I use this type of cleaner on medical and watersports.

http://www.cortecvci.com/Products/single.php?code=10064

Also SimpleGreen in a sprayed undiluted application can do wonders too. Make sure to wipe off excess.

EpeeDAD

Purple Fencer · 11-18-2005, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i'mnottelling

They were Russion blades.....

What brand....StM, Vniti, Lammet....etc? if you don't know, describe the maker's stamp at the shoulder.

Also....please describe in DETAIL both how you're cleaning and preparing the blades for wiring, and your wiring technique (include every step you take, and whatever products you're using to clean, prepare, and wire...)

Throw out all the info you can....you'd be amazed at how often a nagging problem can be solved by information you'd normally think is of no consequence....armorers tend to overanalyse everything....we have to.

WhipLash · 11-18-2005, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Also....please describe in DETAIL both how you're cleaning and preparing the blades for wiring, and your wiring technique (include every step you take, and whatever products you're using to clean, prepare, and wire...)

Throw out all the info you can....you'd be amazed at how often a nagging problem can be solved by information you'd normally think is of no consequence....armorers tend to overanalyse everything....we have to.

haha...seem to hear that coming from you quite often....

Purple Fencer · 11-18-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipLash

haha...seem to hear that coming from you quite often....

Yeah....there's a reason....it's true!

i'mnottelling · 11-18-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

What brand....StM, Vniti, Lammet....etc? if you don't know, describe the maker's stamp at the shoulder.

.

The blades were Fleche blades. The stamp was a fencer doing fleche. I soaked them in the acetone bath overnight to remove the shipping grease. I scraped out any grit left in the groove then wiped them down and wired them. After the first bout the would wire pop out. I tried spot glueing but eventually the whole wire would come up. I cleaned and wired again thinking that I did a bad wiring job. Same thing happened. After that I tried roughing up the surface with steel wool, different glue, different solvents like MEK and even rubbing alcohol. The result was still the same. The blades are gone now. I made practice epees out of them for club weapons.

One odd note. Two of the blades were stiff and a telephone pole. The third would take a 90 degree bend about 4 " from the tip.

i'mt

Purple Fencer · 11-18-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i'mnottelling

The blades were Fleche blades. The stamp was a fencer doing fleche. I soaked them in the acetone bath overnight to remove the shipping grease. I scraped out any grit left in the groove then wiped them down and wired them. After the first bout the would wire pop out. I tried spot glueing but eventually the whole wire would come up. I cleaned and wired again thinking that I did a bad wiring job. Same thing happened. After that I tried roughing up the surface with steel wool, different glue, different solvents like MEK and even rubbing alcohol. The result was still the same. The blades are gone now. I made practice epees out of them for club weapons.

One odd note. Two of the blades were stiff and a telephone pole. The third would take a 90 degree bend about 4 " from the tip.

i'mt

OK....Blade blades. The blade itself is not the issue...the key is the preparation....

How did you scrape the grit out of the groove?? You MUST have clean, bare metal in that groove, or the glue will not stick...it needs to adhere to the metal, NOT the crud in the groove.

Roughing up with steel wool is pointless...won't do the job at all.

What you should do is get a Dremel and use a diamond cutting wheel (you can get them at Amazon). It IS a cutting wheel, but it cuts steel very slowly....perfect for grinding out a wire or the stuff in the groove.

Don't just run the wheel down the center of the groove, angle the wheel so it ALSO gets the side walls.

After looking into the groove and making sure you've ground out all the gunk (by the way...you can save a LOT of effort by buying the colored blades like I sell...because the color acts as a rust oreventative -- just like the grease does -- there's less work involved getting it clean the first time. You STILL havge to grind out the coliring int eh groove, but it's a LOT easier than carving the grease out), run a Q-tip soaked with rubbing alcohol down the groove to wipe away any remaining stuff, then a razor blade down the groove to both remove any fluff from the Q-tip AND to be able to feel if you missed anything...the blade should run smoothly down the groove with no hitches.

Yeah....it's an involved process, but a necessarry one, adn every experienced armorer (Me, Mergs, Donald Clinton, Tim Loomis, Dan DeChaine, etc) will tell you the same thing....if you don't properly prepare the blade, you;re wasting your time and materials.

How long is your wiring chain? I find that a good length is from the top to the shoulder of the blade I'm working on...you HAVE to wire the blade while it's bent....that's how it's gonne be whenh teh greatest stress is placed on the wire...

I really need to work on that idea I had of an on-line video demo on my website....