Another question fromt he curious!

**John Nguyen** · 08-06-2002 06:29 AM

How does a rating system work.

e -> a

I mean, what do I have to do to become E-rated?

Is it different state to state?

Thanks,

John

**Peach** · 08-06-2002 06:33 AM

If you're talking about U.S. fencing, check out:

<a href="http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/Rules/OpsMan/Class.asp" target="_blank">http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/Rules/OpsMan/Class.asp</a>

This is the table for earning classifications in any USFA competition across the country.

**John Nguyen** · 08-06-2002 06:36 AM

But what does it all mean?

What is the process broken down.

I've never been to a tournament, what are the Stipulations for me becoming an E-Rated

**Peach** · 08-06-2002 06:55 AM

Here's how to read that table: if you go to a USFA tournament with 6-14 fencers, and you win, you earn an E. That's the first row of the table on the chart at the URL I gave you.

If you go to a tournament with at least 15 fencers, and you place 2nd or 3rd, you get an E. That's the second row.

If you go to a tournament with 15 fencers in which there are the required number of other fencers with classifications (in the next row) and you place 4th through 6th, you get an E. That is, if you have at least 15 fencers, and there are AT LEAST two C's, two D's, and two E's competing, AND AT LEAST two of the C's and two of the D's finish in the top 8, it's a Group C1 tournament.

And so on.

I recommend not focusing on getting a classification until you have a few tournaments under your belt, though it's a good long-term plan.

***Craig*** · 08-06-2002 07:14 AM

You go to tournaments, you fence, if you place high enough (based upon the documentation at: <a href="http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/Rules/OpsMan/Class.asp)" target="_blank">http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/Rules/OpsMan/Class.asp)</a> then you earn a rating.

It's all based on the number of fencers in the tournament, their ratings, and your performance relative to those ratings.

Cheers,
Craig

**John Nguyen** · 08-06-2002 07:22 AM

Cool, thanks for the info.

Anyone care to answer my other topics? heh heh!

thanks again,

John

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-06-2002 10:13 AM

Here's something else to chew around in your head about ratings.

Fencer A - goes to a small, E and Under event. This means that only Unclassified and E rated foilists could compete. Fencer A ties for 3rd in a field of 18. 3 of these 18 are E's and all of them earned their E from the previous registricted event hosted in Houston. About half of the 18 are inexperienced in competition. Fencer A earneds his E for his performance.

Fencer B - fences at the 2001 Van Buskirk memorial having not picked up a foil since November (the VB is generally in March.) Fencer B sweeps his pool which includes Ray Sexton (one of the best veterens in the US) as well as another B, I think. At anyrate, this fencer goes 7-0 in perhaps the toughest pool in the tournament, I had the 2nd toughest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . He ends up running out of gas against Richard Spicer from Salle' Mauro. Since you are new, I'll tell you that Salle' Mauro is well known to have one of the finest foil coaches in the nation. At any rate, Fencer B places 9th of 52 in a competition which draws some of the finest foilists in the state of Texas. Fencer B earneds his E for his performance.

Can you see the difference from how the two fencers earn their E? I've fenced against both A and B and I can assure you that B's performance was no fluke, he's exceptional. Don't think that ratings tell the whole story. I myself claimed my E from winning an Unclassified Epee tournament with 10 people in it. I may not stand a chance from someone who gets their E by placing 9th at the Salle' Pouj Open in San Antonio.

Don't let someone's rating spook you into thinking its all over if you draw them. In fact, don't even think about it. Just fence your game and do your best. Let your opponents performance THAT day be your worry, not their past performance or their luck to enter an easy event.

**three_hundred_fifty_five** · 08-06-2002 11:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Nguyen:
But what does it all mean?

What is the process broken down.

I've never been to a tournament, what are the Stipulations for me becoming an E-Rated<hr /></blockquote>To answer your other questions. The USFA classification system is the same nationwide. You can also fence in Canada with a USFA card and they will use your classification when creating the pools.

You start as an unclassified fencer when you join the USFA as a competitive member. You can get a higher classification if you perform well in a USFA sanctioned tournament. It's a loose determination of what level fencer you are.
The classification system allows event organizers to hold a tournament for fencers of the same level to gain experience and a chance to get a higher classification. It prevents higher level fencers from entering tournaments for low level fenceres and it also prevents lower level fencers from entering tournaments for high level fencers.

**edew** · 08-06-2002 12:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Here's something else to chew around in your head about ratings.

Fencer A - goes to a small, E and Under event. This means that only Unclassified and E rated foilists could compete. Fencer A ties for 3rd in a field of 18. 3 of these 18 are E's and all of them earned their E from the previous registricted event hosted in Houston. About half of the 18 are inexperienced in competition. Fencer A earneds his E for his performance.

Fencer B - fences at the 2001 Van Buskirk memorial having not picked up a foil since November (the VB is generally in March.) Fencer B sweeps his pool which includes Ray Sexton (one of the best veterens in the US) as well as another B, I think. At anyrate, this fencer goes 7-0 in perhaps the toughest pool in the tournament, I had the 2nd toughest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . He ends up running out of gas against Richard Spicer from Salle' Mauro. Since you are new, I'll tell you that Salle' Mauro is well known to have one of the finest foil coaches in the nation. At any rate, Fencer B places 9th of 52 in a competition which draws some of the finest foilists in the state of Texas. Fencer B earneds his E for his performance.

Can you see the difference from how the two fencers earn their E? I've fenced against both A and B and I can assure you that B's performance was no fluke, he's exceptional. Don't think that ratings tell the whole story. I myself claimed my E from winning an Unclassified Epee tournament with 10 people in it. I may not stand a chance from someone who gets their E by placing 9th at the Salle' Pouj Open in San Antonio.

Don't let someone's rating spook you into thinking its all over if you draw them. In fact, don't even think about it. Just fence your game and do your best. Let your opponents performance THAT day be your worry, not their past performance or their luck to enter an easy event.<hr /></blockquote>Again and again and again and again and again....your classification is not an indication of how well you fence. All it says is that you finished sufficiently high at a sufficiently tough event within the last one, two, three, or four years. Your classification is not a merit badge indicating proficiency. It's a way for tournament committees to seed future tournaments.

Of course, there is a correlation between proficiency and classification. That goes without saying.

Also, the USFA just posted the NEW (not necessarily improved) classification chart. Go to the usfencing.org site and check the latest news section. It seems that it will be a bit more difficult to obtain new classifications, as in some cases, fewer people will earn new classifications. For example, the Group A1 gives out new classifications only to the eighth person. Previously, the 9th place finisher got a D as well. Maybe this will inspire more people to attend so that they can more likely get a new classification (or update their existing one).

**Purple Fencer** · 08-06-2002 01:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by edew:

Also, the USFA just posted the NEW (not necessarily improved) classification chart. Go to the usfencing.org site and check the latest news section. It seems that it will be a bit more difficult to obtain new classifications, as in some cases, fewer people will earn new classifications. For example, the Group A1 gives out new classifications only to the eighth person. Previously, the 9th place finisher got a D as well. Maybe this will inspire more people to attend so that they can more likely get a new classification (or update their existing one).<hr /></blockquote>Eric, maybe you can explain this to me. I;ve never understood WHY the E ratings aren't on the chart for the A1 and A2 events...they;re there for the A3 and A4. Onthe old chart there was at least one level (A1 or A4, I think) where the E wasn;t listed. is this a typo or is the E not awarded? Makes no sense to award Es at every other level.

Actually, afer looking at the new chart, I like the mid-level events where the minimum # is 25...SoCal gets 25+ people in tourneys all the time (except for sabre).

It may be very true that the only real purpose of the ratings is for future seeding, but for many people, reaching that E or C is the only tangible proof of their improvement, especially if they don't medal.

Now if only I could find out about my director's rating as fast...would you believe I STILL don;t know about it, and I took the practical in Palm Springs! Oy!

[ 08-06-2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Purple Fencer ]

**edew** · 08-06-2002 01:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Purple Fencer:


It may be very true that the only real purpose of the ratings is for future seeding, but for many people, reaching that E or C is the only tangible proof of their improvement, especially if they don't medal.

Now if only I could find out about my director's rating as fast...would you believe I STILL don;t know about it, and I took the practical in Palm Springs! Oy!<hr /></blockquote>I would strongly advise coaches NOT use the classifications as indications of improvement for their fencers. A better indication will be the number of victories and losses at a tournament, how far up the DE table attained, etc. Those are measurable results and have a better bearing on skills indicators than a letter rating would. One way to get such information is to use a numerical points system, which many regions use.

As for how one gets his or her referee rating, I still don't know what my referee rating is. I guess my USFA membership card has that information, but I'm not sure (since I don't carry it around with me). I don't know if I'm a 5 or a 4 or whatever, and I don't know who would be the one to bump up the rating, either. The FOC group is extremely weak and untidy in that aspect.

**Peach** · 08-06-2002 02:43 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Purple Fencer:
Now if only I could find out about my director's rating as fast...would you believe I STILL don;t know about it, and I took the practical in Palm Springs! Oy!<hr /></blockquote>I didn't find out what my rating was until about two years after I got it and they'd been asking me to ref, and then I found out by accident.

[ 08-06-2002, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Peach ]

**Inquartata** · 08-06-2002 07:01 PM

MORE pinheaded tinkering from the USFA bureaucracy!

Now in order to get a C without beating a C, the competition must have 25 participants instead of the previous requirement of 15.

Wonderful. We have exactly zero active C's in sabre in my Division. We have managed, by dint of much begging and drafting of foilists and epeeists, to scrape together 15 for a sabre competition exactly twice in the 20 years I have been fencing. 25 is flatly impossible. I suspect my Division is not the only one in this boat.

What the USFA has in fact said is "If you live in a large, sparsely populated Division and want to advance, buy plane tickets. Lots and lots of plane tickets."

Thank you, USFA.

**veeco** · 08-06-2002 11:39 PM

On the other hand, it's now possible to get an A without even beating one. Granted, there has to be 64 fencers in that competition... So that doesn't seem likely to happen in your division...

**Fencing Mom** · 08-07-2002 04:20 AM

Hi,
Concerning finding out your referee's rating - there is a list of referees and their ratings buried in the FOC webpage, although I don't know how up to date it is. You can find the webpage by going into "committees" on the USFA webpage. The site says it is under construction and it certainly is, you have to dig around to find things, but it includes some interesting information.

**Purple Fencer** · 08-07-2002 10:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Fencing Mom:
Hi,
Concerning finding out your referee's rating - there is a list of referees and their ratings buried in the FOC webpage, although I don't know how up to date it is. You can find the webpage by going into "committees" on the USFA webpage. The site says it is under construction and it certainly is, you have to dig around to find things, but it includes some interesting information.<hr /></blockquote>Tried that a few weeks back...no joy.

Guess I'll just have to take the practical in San Diego this year.

**DJ Apostrophe** · 08-07-2002 11:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Eric, maybe you can explain this to me. I;ve never understood WHY the E ratings aren't on the chart for the A1 and A2 events...they;re there for the A3 and A4. Onthe old chart there was at least one level (A1 or A4, I think) where the E wasn;t listed. is this a typo or is the E not awarded? Makes no sense to award Es at every other level. <hr /></blockquote>Interestingly Enough... if you look at the ratings given out for a B2 competition vs a A2 competition you will notice that 11th and 12th place in the B2 competition earn E's but those placements in the A2 earn nothing, now because an A2 is inherently a B2 the people who place 11th and 12th would still earn E's... I don't know if this was an oversight to not include this, but it shows (to me at least) that the chart was A: Hastily constructed and B: Not reviewed by everyone in the meeting that approved it. If either case was not true, this oversight would have been caught and the Es would have been put on the A2 if for no other reason then to reduce confusion... just my thought.

[ 08-07-2002, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: DJ Apostrophe ]

**edew** · 08-07-2002 12:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Eric, maybe you can explain this to me. I;ve never understood WHY the E ratings aren't on the chart for the A1 and A2 events...they;re there for the A3 and A4. Onthe old chart there was at least one level (A1 or A4, I think) where the E wasn;t listed. is this a typo or is the E not awarded? Makes no sense to award Es at every other level. <hr /></blockquote>Interestingly Enough... if you look at the ratings given out for a B2 competition vs a A2 competition you will notice that 11th and 12th place in the B2 competition earn E's but those placements in the A2 earn nothing, now because an A2 is inherently a B2 the people who place 11th and 12th would still earn E's... I don't know if this was an oversight to not include this, but it shows (to me at least) that the chart was A: Hastily constructed and B: Not reviewed by everyone in the meeting that approved it. If either case was not true, this oversight would have been caught and the Es would have been put on the A2 if for no other reason then to reduce confusion... just my thought.<hr /></blockquote>I have no problems agreeing with you that the chart was hastily constructed, with little foresight and concept, and not reviewed by anyone with any attempt at thoroughness.

**edew** · 08-07-2002 12:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Purple Fencer:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Fencing Mom:
Hi,
Concerning finding out your referee's rating - there is a list of referees and their ratings buried in the FOC webpage, although I don't know how up to date it is. You can find the webpage by going into "committees" on the USFA webpage. The site says it is under construction and it certainly is, you have to dig around to find things, but it includes some interesting information.<hr /></blockquote>Tried that a few weeks back...no joy.

Guess I'll just have to take the practical in San Diego this year.<hr /></blockquote>Well, I found the page. Your name is not even on it. Talk to Derek about getting your name onto the list. If you didn't do well on the practical, at least you should have a 5 or maybe lower.

**oiuyt** · 08-07-2002 02:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I;ve never understood WHY the E ratings aren't on the chart for the A1 and A2 events<hr /></blockquote>Sam- for a very good reason. Let's consider the old chart (or the new A1 for that matter). It only requires 15 people. Depending on which system D's went down to 8 or 9. How far down are you going to allow E's? A reasonable break would be E's down to 12, but then you could have a 15 person tournament with everyone except for the 3 worst receiving ratings. They SHOULD cut off at the 8 level and not allow E's. It's nice that the new system allows for the A2 level (okay, technically the B2 level) to extend that a bit more for slightly larger (ie non-marginal) tournaments.

I think the new system clears up a problem that existed (the fact that 18 person tournaments gave out the same ratings as 45 person tournaments) but leaves many other problems still out there (a tournament with 2 A's is the same level as one with 8 A's, a flukey pool and/or DE bout can move someone up one or even two rating levels, the ratings quanta are still too large, ratings are still luck/right opportunity based to a large degree). The problem is most of the remaining problems would require something like the move to a numeric system (a la chess, such as the one discussed, approved, and never implemented back around 1997ish) which massively adds to overhead. I'm sure that if people can come up with good suggestions for how to improve the current system that DON'T require massive change that the National office would love to hear them and would forward them as appropriate to the correct committee(s).

-B

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