After the fact: California election, Prop 73

[JackOfHearts]

Some of you may have heard of yesterdays Special elections, in which a number of propositions were voted on concerning all manner of things including education reform, redistricting, proscription drugs, and abortions. It's this last one that I wish to talk about.

Proposition 73 would've made it illegal for doctors to perfom an abortion on a minor without notifying her parents 48 hours in advance.

Just wondering what your opinions are on this. I'll put my two cents in after I hear what you have to say.

[achilleus]

You know, it's funny, I just had a discussion with a friend from CA about this exact prop. Being pro choice, my friend was shocked that I was torn.

I mean, according to the info she had available, the financial cost of this going into effect would have been put CA into an even further hole, but that aside...

Her first point was, they were old enough to get themselves in the situation, their old enough to get themselves out. I responded with that the law doesn't allow them to consent to sex, so legally, they can't get themselves into this situation...

Then her point was, it's privacy issue, and no one can tell you what to do with your body. Are minors really afforded this? Does this mean parents can't ground kids? If this is true, how come minors can't consent, or drink, etc...

It's a sticky issue, especially when you take into account that minors are just that. Kids. They often need advice or guidence especially in matters of great importance...

I dunno, she kinda gave up the argument at that point with me...

Personally If not for the financial issues, and just moral issues, I don't know how I would vote on this issue.

[cowpaste]

Personally I feel it's a horrible idea. Teenagers will get abortions no matter what if they really want them. If they really, really don't want their parents to know, they will turn to underground doctors and such, which is no good. It's the girl's body, not the parents'. Why do they have to know? What possible benefit could arise from them knowing?

[annacattiva]

Originally Posted by cowpaste

Personally I feel it's a horrible idea. Teenagers will get abortions no matter what if they really want them. If they really, really don't want their parents to know, they will turn to underground doctors and such, which is no good. It's the girl's body, not the parents'. Why do they have to know? What possible benefit could arise from them knowing?

I agree with the first part of your post, that if you impose too many restrictions, people will go outside the official system to do things, which in the case of medicine and surgery is not such a great idea. But I think that there are potentially enormous benefits that could arise from having the parents know about something like this. The most obvious would happen in the ideal case in which the parents supported their daughter's decision and were able to provide her with advice and support.

As far as achilleus' comments go, I also agree and disagree. They're minors. We have laws prohibiting them from doing other things. They're required to get parental consent on things far less important than abortions. On the other hand, sometimes they don't know what's best and can ruin a kid's life, especially when it's something this important and this loaded with outside concerns (religion, morality, sexual mores, etc) that can affect a decision. Perhaps a compromise could be requiring the teenager to meet with a therapist/counsellor 24 hours before just to talk out the issues and make sure this really is the right choice. And possibly figure out if it is a good idea in that particular case for the girl to talk to her parents.

It's tough.

[Slim]

Wow. It's seems pretty clear that the people commenting thus far are not parents and do not have a young daughter.

This law required notification only. It does not require parental permission or consent. To me as a parent, it's pretty scary that the pro-choice people feel that a child has the facilities to make such a difficult decision in the first place and that such a huge, life altering event should be allowed to be kept a secret from the parents.

One would hope that a young girl would volunteer this information to their parents, but the reality is that most wont if they dont have to. I think allowing them to keep it a secret just gives them the option of taking the easy way out. After all, what kid actually likes unncessary confrontations with their parents?

As liberal as CA is, I find it somewhat interesting that it lost by such a small margin given the $$ spent by NARAL to defeat it.

[Maeve_Mari]

Here you go Slim. I'm a parent and I have a young daughter.
I am not specifically in favor of parental notification. While I think that as a parent I do possess special care and concern for the safety or my own daughter, I don't think that all young girls have parents who are as understanding and supportive as I am. I also know, that even for as close as my daughter and I can be, that if she did get pregnant and decided to have an abortion, I think that she would avoid telling me and seek alternative medical services...

So, given a choice - I'd like my daughter to tell me, and I would help her as best I could with her decisions. But if she didnt want to tell me, then I would want her to have access to safe and private care and counseling on her own.

[annacattiva]

I think that part of the problem here is that we try to keep kids in the dark about so many things that are so important to their health and well-being that it's difficult to turn around and expect them to come to parents with questions that relate to pregnancy. As Slim says, one Would hope that a girl in this situation would want to tell her parents and get their support and help, but that's not always the way the world works, as MM points out. And given how prurient our society is and how much misinformation we give teenagers about sex (let's teach kids only about abstinence and tell them that condoms don't work), it's not really surprising that young women wouldn't want to turn to their parents when they were in trouble. As for it being "only" notification, when you're underage, there's really no such thing as "only" notification. Sure, you don't need their signature on the piece of paper, or their presence in the hospital, but if they don't let you out of the house to go to your appointment...

[jBirch]

I gotta agree with Achillius about being torn between the two issues. On the one hand, if you require kids to tell their parents about this sort of game changing situation, then they might decide to just go about getting an abortion in a different (generally dumber) way. So keeping these kids safe is of the utmost importance, I think.

But if you don't tell their parents then the kids are significantly more likely to get an abortion just out of convenience. "My mom will KILL me, so best she never knows".

But then you have to think about the incompetant parent that's likely to fly off the handle and do some way more damaging harm. Tough call.

I'm kinda on board with the compromise solution though. Maybe requiring the kid to provide an adult over the age of, say, 25 as a reference?

James.

[Slim]

Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari

Here you go Slim. I'm a parent and I have a young daughter.
I am not specifically in favor of parental notification. While I think that as a parent I do possess special care and concern for the safety or my own daughter, I don't think that all young girls have parents who are as understanding and supportive as I am. I also know, that even for as close as my daughter and I can be, that if she did get pregnant and decided to have an abortion, I think that she would avoid telling me and seek alternative medical services...

So, given a choice - I'd like my daughter to tell me, and I would help her as best I could with her decisions. But if she didnt want to tell me, then I would want her to have access to safe and private care and counseling on her own.

Why is the argument always that it's to "protect" those who dont have understanding parents? I think most parents are probably a lot more understand than most young people realize.

I actually view it as enabling those who would prefer just make it go away and keep the whole episode a secret from their parents. It provides them with an easy way out of a difficult situation. But, the real problems dont just go away after the procedure.

I find your attitude rather sad in a couple of ways. First, that you as a parent feel a pregnant girl who could be as young as 12 or 13 would even be able to make a rational decision on her own regarding an abortion. Second, that if your daughter did get pregnant, and that if she did not tell you, it would be ok with you for her to make such a critical decision on her own. We're talking about a child making a decision that will change them forever.

I just think as a parent you should be doing everything and anything you can to be injecting yourself into all matters of her life. Even if it means passing a law to require notification.

This is a family matter involving a minor. The parents of the minor child should not be left in the dark.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Slim

I actually view it as enabling those who would prefer just make it go away and keep the whole episode a secret from their parents. It provides them with an easy way out of a difficult situation. But, the real problems dont just go away after the procedure.

I agree that providing anonymous abortions is a good way to encourage more people to resort to them.

I find your attitude rather sad in a couple of ways. First, that you as a parent feel a pregnant girl who could be as young as 12 or 13 would even be able to make a rational decision on her own regarding an abortion. Second, that if your daughter did get pregnant, and that if she did not tell you, it would be ok with you for her to make such a critical decision on her own. We're talking about a child making a decision that will change them forever.

This isn't even directed at me and I find it offensive.

That you would expect a 12 or 13 year old child to brave their parents instead of speaking to a stranger about an abortion shows you haven't a clue when it comes to kids. That you'd call in to question MM's parenting skills is just plain rude (not to mention wrong).

I would almost guarantee that if you required abortion clinics to notify parents that their daughter (who decided to go to the clinic instead of their parents in the first place) wanted an abortion they'd:

1) Run away
2) Commit suicide
3) Make up a name and say that they don't have any parents.
4) Try to do it themselves with a coat hanger.
5) Do something equally desperate.

I just think as a parent you should be doing everything and anything you can to be injecting yourself into all matters of her life. Even if it means passing a law to require notification.

Y'know, I know of a lot of families that are in a lot of counseling for exactly what you're proposing as the ideal situation. I also know a lot of children at that age that run away from home and live on the street instead of letting their parents run their lives for them because of what you propose as the best way to raise kids.

What would you do if the child told you that she was raped? What would you do if the child told you that she was molested by a family member? What if she was lying? What if she wasn't? What if she decided, after talking to you, that she still wanted an abortion? What if she decided she wanted to get married? What if she wouldn't tell you who the father was? What if she was in love? What if she was drinking? What if she was doing drugs? What if she decided to drop out of school and get a job?

You have to trust that you've taught your kids by the age of 12 or 13 to make sound judgements and to trust you. If you haven't, then you need to keep their best wishes uppermost in your mind. They make more critical life decisions in the run of a day then you do, I'd wager.

James.

[L.O.A.S.]

Originally Posted by achilleus

I mean, according to the info she had available, the financial cost of this going into effect would have been put CA into an even further hole, but that aside...

What is the background on the financial cost? I haven't heard that aspect to this issue.

[JackOfHearts]

Originally Posted by L.O.A.S.

What is the background on the financial cost? I haven't heard that aspect to this issue.

Well, I was hoping to delve more into the moral/personal aspects rather then financial. Though I'll see what I can dig up

[L.O.A.S.]

Abortion on demand vs. Parent's right to carry out their responsibilities as parents

The parent is legally responsible for the care and rearing of their child. Sure, there are times that responsibility is delegated to others (e.g. school), but until that responsibility is taken away (CPS), the parents are ultimately responsible. How can it be acceptable that parents not be informed of something like their daughter getting an abortion? Because she might runaway, commit suicide, do it illegally? Should the police or school principal not inform parents if their child is unruly for the same reason? This is (or should be) about protecting the right of the parent to raise and protect their children.

[gojujay]

I voted for Prop 73 because it recognizes the parents ultimate responsibility for their child. I think that the government has attempted to take too much authority from parents as is i.e. I have a friend who was recently arrested for child abuse. He had taken two kids into his home as a foster parent. While he was at work, one of the kids ran away. Long story short the police pick up the child as a runaway. While in custody the kid makes a complaint of abuse against my friend. The abuse? He (my friend) makes us do chores, dig ditches, stack lumber when we get in trouble. According to California law this is classified as abuse. The State keeps taking responsibility and authority from parents, and I viewed Prop 73 as a way to slow that down.

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by gojujay

I have a friend who was recently arrested for child abuse. He had taken two kids into his home as a foster parent. While he was at work, one of the kids ran away. Long story short the police pick up the child as a runaway. While in custody the kid makes a complaint of abuse against my friend. The abuse? He (my friend) makes us do chores, dig ditches, stack lumber when we get in trouble. According to California law this is classified as abuse. The State keeps taking responsibility and authority from parents, and I viewed Prop 73 as a way to slow that down.

that's a horrible story, i'm sorry your friend had to go through that.





on the abortion thing, i don't think that the parents have a say in this case. yes, they have a responsibility for their child's safety, and a right to protect their child, but in this case, it is their grandchild whose life is really in question. and they don't have any rights there.

so though i am on the line between pro life and pro choice, i don't beleive in parental notification.

[Philistine]

I'm kind of torn on the issue. I can see both sides.

Ultimately, I'm probably in favor of notification laws so long as there is an opportunity to opt out of notification if there are sufficient reasons to not give notification (e.g. the child can convince a judge she would be in physical danger if parent's were told, would be in actual danger of being thrown out, etc.)

You need parental consent to get a tattoo, let alone a surgical procedure.

--Philistine

[Araznal]

Originally Posted by Philistine

You need parental consent to get a tattoo, let alone a surgical procedure.
--Philistine

I think this says it best. This is MAJOR surgery. To allow kids to make the decision to have major surgery without even INFORMING their parents is unthinkable.

Just imagine your 14 year-old daughter coming home and saying, "I had a great day at school, went to practice for a few hours, and got a quick appendectomy on my way home"


Now, even though I know how some of you think that "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" is a great example to follow...