Epee rule question

[HilandDoug]

Hi everybody! I've missed you all in my long absence from this board. My club and I hosted a D & Under tournament in Michigan this past Saturday Nov. 5th, and an interesting question about epee rules reared it's ugly head, and I, unfortunately, apparently gave the wrong answer based on my experience with foil and saber. Here's how the incident was related to me by the referee:

Fencer A thought she had a problem with her epee not working, but during the halt when the tip was depressed, it worked. The very next phrase, Fencer A attacks a fraction of a second before Fencer B. Both apparently land, but only B's light goes on. It is noted that it appeared that A's touch landed a fraction of a second prior to B's touch. After the halt, B is awarded a touch. Fencer A checks her weapon again, and finds that it is dead. She politely requests that the touch awarded to Fencer B be annulled on the basis that her own weapon is not functioning properly. At this point, the referree, who'd been away from the game for a while and was pressed by me into referreeing, approaches me to ask what he should do. I said B gets to keep the touch because it is not known if A's weapon failed before or just after the action, nor if A hit with sufficient force to depress the tip, and because it is A's responsibility to make sure her weapon is functioning; and if it's not, to swap weapons. Fencer A disagreed with the decision, but let it pass. Her father, an epeeist of great renown, politely informed me that I had made the wrong decision.

Later, another referee, one very experienced (a 3,3,4, I believe, if not higher rated) was consulted, and also informed me that I made the wrong call on awarding the touch. Now, a little history is in order here. In the past, when I'd been fencing foil or saber and had the exact same thing happen to me (at least once in saber, 3 or 4 times fencing foil), my opponent or I were allowed to keep the touch, there was no talk of annulling the touch, and the owner of the dead weapon was told that it was their fault for not making sure their weapon was in working order after each touch. Unfortunately, my busy schedule does not allow me to scour the rule book (yes, we had one at the tournement but the person looking couldn't find anything prior to the objection being withdrawn) as well as I would like, so I turn to the experts here at Fencing.net for the correct call, and where this might be found in the rule book.

Thank you in advance,

Doug McLaren
SchoolcraftFencing.com
"Of course this is my hair. I paid for it!"

[Fencing Jesus]

You are completely wrong.

That'll be 1 public apology + 342 hail mary's + 7623 Mysterys of the Rosary.

[HilandDoug]

Yes, I was told that. The request was "where is it in the rule book?"

[Fencing Jesus]

Yes, I was told that. The request was "where is it in the rule book?"

You have the internet, so you have a copy of the rule book

Look in the section called epee.

Do you think your secretary posts here?

[RITFencing]

Here's the deal regarding equipment malfunctions:

If after a halt is called and one fencer presents his/her weapon for testing to the referee and that weapon is found not to work in a manner that could have been caused by the fencing AND the weapon has been in the refferee's control the entire time (ie, the fincers has not been fiddling with the tip, brought the socket behind his/her back, etc) then the touch gets annulled. Doesn't matter what the fencing looked like or anything else; if the weapon failed, the touch is annulled.

There is a corollary to this: the test must be done after the halt is called on that touch; if the fencer does not ask for the test and just reutrns en garde and fences some more, tough noogies.

Let this be a lesson to newbie fencers, too: If you suspect your weapon is broken, don't test it yourself. Immediately ask the ref for a test. They won't mind. You can also ask to change weapons if you feel the tip is intermittent, but be aware that the weapon you give up will be confistacted for the rest of the bout and if you run out of weapons, you're SOL.

I'm going to look for the specific rule, but that's the info up there.

[OROD]

Fencer A checks her weapon again, and finds that it is dead.

Did the fencer check her weapon and find it was dead, or did she ask the director to check the weapon and the director found that it was dead? As I understand it if the fencer checks his/her own weapon and find it dead, you cant discard the touch because AT THAT POINT you dont know if the weapon was dead before or during/after the fencer checked it (basically, fencer interferance).


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[kalivor]

In epee, t.66-68 indicate when you should annul a hit at epee.

A couple of points: Fencer A is not allowed to test her own weapon. The referee must test the weapon in order for the hit to be annulled.

You'll note that the rule is the same in foil or sabre -- if something happens during a bout that causes a weapon to stop registering hits, then a touch can be annulled. The referees in your foil and sabre experience were both dead wrong.

[RITFencing]

Did the fencer check her weapon and find it was dead, or did she ask the director to check the weapon and the director found that it was dead? As I understand it if the fencer checks his/her own weapon and find it dead, you cant discard the touch because AT THAT POINT you dont know if the weapon was dead before or during/after the fencer checked it (basically, fencer interferance).


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That depends on what the ref thinks. Personally, if the fencer closed his/her fist around the tip and used his/her thumb to press it down, then i would not annul the point. If they pressed it on the floor near my feet and I saw that he/she was not making any odd atempts to conceal part of the weapon, I would consider that weapon to be "under my control" and would have annulled the touch, provided it was a fault that could have been caused by the fencing, like the wire breaking.

[HilandDoug]

Thank you, Kalivor.

I was told that the fencer tested her weapon, found it to be dead, then called it to the referree's attention by touching it to the floor in front of his feet. I was not a witness to the event.

So I got rooked in the past? Figures! And I ALWAYS ask the ref to check my weapon for me, because I know nothing about them (except the saber- one wire is something I can handle).

[RITFencing]

Sorry, change control to supervision in my posts, just looked up the rule. Like Kalivor said, all rules on annulment of touches are in t.66-68.

[RITFencing]

Thank you, Kalivor.

I was told that the fencer tested her weapon, found it to be dead, then called it to the referree's attention by touching it to the floor in front of his feet. I was not a witness to the event.

So I got rooked in the past? Figures! And I ALWAYS ask the ref to check my weapon for me, because I know nothing about them (except the saber- one wire is something I can handle).

Ummm... sabres don't have wires

[keith]

Ummm... sabres don't have wires

....for sabre it would be a break in the lame clip wire - it appears attached, but no hits register (or the clip becomind removed without anyone noticing, less likely).

[KD5MDK]

For epee fencers:
If you think the weapon has failed, do not touch anything. Ask the referee for permission to test the weapon. After they grant it, gently depress the tip with the palm of your hand, on your shoe, or the side of the strip. If you have a really good reason to know it's not working (like you see the tip missing), then you can skip straight to asking them to test. I advise you test yourself with permission first because of the steps below. Whatever you do, don't touch the body cord, guard, or blade.

For referees:
When an epee fencer loses a touch, you must watch them until they test or touch their electrical gear in a way that might affect it. Once they have done this, they lose the right to have a touch annulled.

If a fencer has done none of these and asks to have their weapon tested, start from back to front. Check the reel to body cord connection. If there's a disconnection there, the touch should be annulled. (There should be a retaining device, which is the tournament organizer's responsibility. If there isn't, use tape, a rubber band, or some other substitute.) Then check inside the guard. If there is a broken wire, disconnected body cord or any other problem, DO NOT annul the touch. Then check down the blade to the barrel. If the barrel is loose, DO NOT annul the touch. Finally, test the tip once. If a touch registers, then the touch cannot be annulled. However, if you have reason to believe that there is something wrong (such as it looked to you as if a touch should have been registered), you can begin troubleshooting from there, such as grounding out the body cord on the bell, bending the blade and testing, etc. However, while those allow you to change the weapon, they do not allow the touch to be annulled.

[telkanuru]

For epee fencers:
If you think the weapon has failed, do not touch anything. Ask the referee for permission to test the weapon. After they grant it, gently depress the tip with the palm of your hand, on your shoe, or the side of the strip. If you have a really good reason to know it's not working (like you see the tip missing), then you can skip straight to asking them to test. I advise you test yourself with permission first because of the steps below. Whatever you do, don't touch the body cord, guard, or blade.

NO!

Never, ever, ever test it yourself. Present it to the referee to be tested. Do not put your hand anywhere near the tip. Let them do everything.

[OROD]

NO!

Never, ever, ever test it yourself. Present it to the referee to be tested. Do not put your hand anywhere near the tip. Let them do everything.

Agreed, especially if you're in a bout you really want to win or if the score is close. If you touch the tip yourself or even test on the floor you can kiss the possible annullment of the touch goodbye!


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[downunder]

Agreed, especially if you're in a bout you really want to win or if the score is close. If you touch the tip yourself or even test on the floor you can kiss the possible annullment of the touch goodbye!


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you have got to be joking. Any world-class referee will have no problems with you testing it before you present it.

[telkanuru]

you have got to be joking. Any world-class referee will have no problems with you testing it before you present it.

Any partially competent ref would have that problem, never mind world-class. I have encountered it from several refs. Ones of note were two USFA '4', and two USFA '1'/ FIE 'B's...

[veeco]

you have got to be joking. Any world-class referee will have no problems with you testing it before you present it.

Yes, that's true, but that's because they know better than most other referees, and actually keep a close eye on the fencer who's been hit after the touch.

I know that I don't always have that reflex, and if I see a fencer testing their weapon themselves, it's possible that I missed something and that the other fencer actually tempered with their weapon.

That's why it's better to ask the referee to check. You're not really losing anything by having them test instead of you, and you're certainly gaining the confidence that the referee cannot say anything if they realize first hand that your weapon was malfunctioning.

[downunder]

understood.... but if i lightly flick the floor or my foot after i concede a hit like i usually do, there is no way that would remove my right to have any hit against me annulled if the weapon is no longer conforming.

[garyhayenga]

understood.... but if i lightly flick the floor or my foot after i concede a hit like i usually do, there is no way that would remove my right to have any hit against me annulled if the weapon is no longer conforming.

It would if I were the referee.

If you pressed the point down gently against the floor and it didn't go off, I would then test the weapon and, if it would still not go off, annul the touch.

If you *flicked* it against the floor I would rule that you could have broken it with that action before preventing it for testing and therefore the touch would stand.

gary hayenga