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  1. #1
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    Confused beginner

    I've been taught sabre by three different people, and each person has said something different either about rules or how to parry or right of way. Can someone please at least tell me the rules to sabre in regards to right of way? Anything else would be much appreciated, but seeing as how I'm competing next weekend, it might be nice to know when the point is or isn't mine.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Cipher's Avatar
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    If you have specific questions then it would be easy to help you out, but if you need to know all the rules then you should download the USFA Rulebook, which can be found here:

    http://www.usfencing.org/do/formsDownloads

    There is only about 1 page to read regarding sabre priority.
    Everybody has to believe in something. I believe I am going to have another beer.

  3. #3
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    All I'm really concerned about is right of way, and I want the official USFA definition for sabre right of way. Everything else can wait.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Araznal's Avatar
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    2. Respect of the fencing phrase
    t.75 (a) Any attack properly executed (cf. t.7) must be parried, or
    completely avoided, and the phrase must be followed through.
    (b) The attack is correctly carried out when the extending of the
    arm, with the point or the cutting edge continuously threatening
    the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge.
    1. An attack with a lunge is correctly carried out:
    — in a simple attack (cf. t.8) when the arm is extended with
    the lunge and the touch arrives at the latest when the front
    foot touches the strip;
    — in a compound attack (cf. t.8) when, with the arm
    extending in the correct forming of the first feint (cf. t.77),
    the touch arrives at the latest when the front foot touches
    the strip or immediately afterwards.
    2. An attack with a step-forward-lunge is correctly carried out:
    — as a simple attack (cf. t.8) when the arm is extending
    before the completion of the step-forward and when the
    touch arrives at the latest at the end of the lunge;
    — as a compound attack (cf. t.8) when, with the arm
    extending in the correct forming of the first feint (cf. t.77)
    during the step-forward, the touch arrives at the latest at
    the end of the lunge.
    3. The flèche and any forward movement crossing the legs or
    feet is forbidden. Any offence will be penalized as specified
    in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120. Any touch scored by the fencer
    at fault will be annulled. However, any touch correctly
    executed by his opponent is valid.
    t.76 (c) In order to judge the correctness of an attack, the following
    points must be considered:
    1. If the attack is initiated when the opponent has his point ‘in
    line’ (cf. t.10) the attacker must first deflect his opponent’s
    weapon. Referees must ensure that a mere grazing of the
    blades is not considered as sufficient to deflect the
    opponent’s blade.
    2. If, when attempting to find the opponent’s blade to deflect it,
    the blade is not found (dérobement), the right of attack passes
    to the opponent.
    3. If the attack is commenced when the opponent’s blade is not
    ‘in line’, the attack may be completed either direct, or by a
    disengagement or by a cutover, or else be preceded by feints
    (cf. t.77) which oblige the opponent to parry.
    t.77 (d) In compound attacks the feint must be correctly carried out, i.e.:
    1. A feint with the point, with the arm extended and the point
    threatening the target continuously.
    2. A feint with a cut, the arm extended, the blade and the
    arm forming an obtuse angle of about 135°, with the
    cutting edge threatening a valid part of the target.
    (e) If during a compound attack the opponent finds the blade
    during one of the feints, he has the right to riposte.
    (f) In a compound attack the opponent has the right to stophit;
    but, in order to be valid, the stop hit must precede the
    last movement of the attack by one period of fencing time,
    i.e. the stop hit must arrive before the attacker has started
    the last movement of the attack itself.
    t.78 (g) Attacks by beats on the blade
    1. In an attack by beating on the blade, this attack is
    correctly carried out and retains its priority when the
    beat is made on the foible of the opponent’s blade, i.e.
    the two-thirds of the blade furthest from the guard.
    2. In an attack by beating on the blade, when the beat is
    made on the forte of the opponent’s blade, i.e. the onethird
    of the blade nearest the guard, the attack is badly
    executed and the beat gives the opponent the right to
    an immediate riposte.
    t.79 (h) The parry gives the right to riposte; a simple riposte may
    be direct or indirect, but in order to annul any subsequent
    movement by the attacker, it must be carried out
    immediately, without any hesitation or pause.
    Against cuts with the cutting edge, the flat or the back of
    the blade, the object of the parry is to prevent touches
    made by the opponent arriving on the valid target;
    therefore:
    1. The parry is properly carried out when, before the
    completion of the attack, it prevents the arrival of that
    attack by closing the line in which that attack is to
    finish.
    2. When a parry is properly executed, the attack by the
    opponent must be declared parried, and judged as such
    by the Referee, even if, as a result of its flexibility, the
    tip of the opponent’s weapon makes contact with the
    target.
    3. Judging of touches
    t.80 In applying these basic conventions of saber fencing, the
    Referee should judge as follows.
    When during a phrase both fencers attack simultaneously there
    is either a simultaneous action or a double touch:
    1. The first of these conditions is due to simultaneous
    conception and execution of an attack by both fencers; in
    this case the touches exchanged are annulled for both
    fencers.
    2. The double touch (coup double) on the other hand, is the
    result of a clearly faulty action on the part of one of the
    fencers.
    Therefore, when there is not an interval of fencing time
    between the touches:
    1. The fencer who is attacked is alone counted as touched:
    (a) If he makes a stop hit on his opponent’s simple attack.
    (b) If, instead of parrying, he attempts to avoid the touch
    and does not succeed in so doing.
    (c) If, after making a successful parry, he makes a
    momentary pause (delayed riposte) which gives his
    opponent the right to renew the attack (redoublement,
    or remise or reprise).
    (d) If, during a compound attack, he makes a stop hit
    without being in time.
    (e) If, having his point ‘in line’ (cf. t.10) and being
    subjected to a beat or a taking of the blade (prise de
    fer) which deflects his blade, he attacks or places his
    point in line again instead of parrying a direct touch made by
    his opponent.
    2. The fencer who attacks is alone counted as touched:
    (a) If he initiated his attack when his opponent had his point ‘in
    line’ and without deflecting the opponent’s weapon. Referees
    must ensure that a mere grazing of the blades is not
    considered as sufficient to deflect the opponent’s blade.
    (b) If he attempts to find the blade, does not succeed (because of
    a derobement) and continues the attack.
    (c) If, during a compound attack, he allows his opponent to find
    the blade, and continues the attack while his opponent
    ripostes immediately.
    (d) If, during a compound attack, he bends his arm or makes a
    momentary pause, during which time the opponent makes a
    stop hit or an attack while the attacker continues his own
    attack.
    (e) If, during a compound attack, he is stop-hit one period of
    fencing time (temps d’escrime) before he makes his final
    movement.
    (f) If he makes a touch by a remise, redoublement or reprise
    following a parry by his opponent which has been followed
    by a riposte which is immediate, simple and executed in one
    period of fencing time without withdrawing the arm.
    3. When there is a double touch (coup double), and if the Referee is
    unable clearly to judge from which side the fault has come, he
    must replace the competitors on guard.
    One of the most difficult cases to judge arises when a stop hit is
    made and there is doubt as to whether it was made sufficiently in
    time in relation to the final movement of a compound attack.
    Generally, in such cases, the double touch occurs through the
    fault of both fencers concerned, which justifies the Referee
    replacing them on guard. (The fault of the attacker consists of
    indecision, slowness of execution or the making of feints which
    are not sufficiently effective. The fault of the defender lies in
    delay or slowness in making the stop hit.)
    Now, I just copied and pasted this from the rulebook. I'm not sure what else you're asking for, sabredancer, since Cipher already provided this for you.
    "What, really? I thought that song was just about a dragon who lived by the sea and frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called Honah Lee."

    "Dan, you're such a dumb*ss"


    Read it, be happy: Funny

  5. #5
    Fencing Expert Array achilleus's Avatar
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    Sorry not really a sabre fencer, but in addition to the rules, here's what the FOC handbook has to say about the fencing phrase analysis.

    The handbook is the guideline that the Officials Commission gives to referee's to illuminate the rules.
    We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
    We love everybody but we do as we please
    When the weather's fine,
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    Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array rcmatthews's Avatar
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    You either have it or you don't. If you do, you can score, If you don't you cant.
    Ich steige ab, Hab keine Zeit, Muss jetzt zu den anderen Pferden, Wollen auch geritten werden

    C'est pas la chute, c'est l'atterrissage.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Mergs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcmatthews
    You either have it or you don't. If you do, you can score, If you don't you cant.
    And it all depends on what the Referee is calling. That day. Or for that bout, for that matter.
    Remember those who put their lives in danger for your sake.

    For your copy of "The Care and Feeding of All Things Fencing", Second Edition go to The Armorer's Store, Fencing.net or www.homfencing.com

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabredancer
    I've been taught sabre by three different people, and each person has said something different either about rules or how to parry or right of way. Can someone please at least tell me the rules to sabre in regards to right of way? Anything else would be much appreciated, but seeing as how I'm competing next weekend, it might be nice to know when the point is or isn't mine.
    you will never, ever, get a good written description of row that you can understand. it's just too complicated and dependant on subtleties in the fencers' actions.

    it would be better if you ask us specific questions on points where your coaches disagree.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcmatthews
    You either have it or you don't. If you do, you can score, If you don't you cant.
    You can score without ROW, but you neeed it to be one light.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array rcmatthews's Avatar
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    Well, see i think you would have right of way, either your counter is in time, their riposte is out of time or whatever.

    Oh yeah, and the rules don't give you the right of way, the referee does.
    Ich steige ab, Hab keine Zeit, Muss jetzt zu den anderen Pferden, Wollen auch geritten werden

    C'est pas la chute, c'est l'atterrissage.

  11. #11
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    Counter-attacks have no priority, but can score a touch if the attacker totally misses. (This is as opposed to stop-hits, which havd priority if they arrive a tempo before the initial attack).

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabredancer
    I'm competing next weekend, it might be nice to know when the point is or isn't mine.
    There's no way you should be competing if you're not yet comfortable with the rules.
    And your coach should be ashamed of himself.

  13. #13
    Curmudgeon Emeritus Array Inquartata's Avatar
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    Well, that seems a bit harsh. I mean, not every competition is a World Cup, nor every fencer a dead-serious claw-up-the-heap competitor. Some are just in it for fun, especially in the beginning. And hell, I probably don't know the subtleties of every rule in the book, myself. ( In fact, I know I don't, or I'd be a highly rated referee by now. )
    Last edited by Inquartata; 11-06-2005 at 08:45 PM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Black Jeebus's Avatar
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    Fun? Fun?! Who told you fencing was fun? You sir have been done a disservice. Fencing is hard work; fencing is a struggle; fencing is never, ever fun! IF you aren't out there training for at least four hours a day, eight days a week, you shouldn't even bother showing up to any competitions! Bah! Second-rate fence-for-fun types- I thought they rounded all those fellows up and shot them out back behind the USFA's giant barn! ( )
    Hello.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inquartata
    Well, that seems a bit harsh. I mean, not every competition is a World Cup, nor every fencer a dead-serious claw-up-the-heap competitor. Some are just in it for fun, especially in the beginning. And hell, I probably don't know the subtleties of every rule in the book, myself. ( In fact, I know I don't, or I'd be a highly rated referee by now. )
    He's not asking about "subtleties", he's saying that he doesn't know how to score points. How fun can it be to go to a competition and have no idea what's going on? His coach needs to have told him the point of what he's doing. Rushing kids to competition can very easily turn them off of it.
    Imagine you were taking, I don't know, chess lessons and your coach never told you any of the rules of the game. It's absurd. And then you're going to a competition?
    It's not hard to give a kid a sense of right-of-way. If Sabredancer's coach isn't doing that, he's not doing his job. If Sabredancer is so new that you can't expect him to know the rules yet (like, maybe he's only been fencing 6 days), he's not ready for competition--he's more likely to get frustrated than have fun and then what's the point?

  16. #16
    Curmudgeon Emeritus Array Inquartata's Avatar
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    I don't think he's saying he has no clue how to score, just that he's had conflicting opinions on how ROW is defined. I can't remember how many years I fenced without understanding why I was always getting called "in preparation" and thus losing ROW. A lot, anyway...and yet I still won bouts somehow.

    Not understanding how ROW is being called scarcely constitutes "not knowing the rules". Especially when it sometimes seem to change from one referee to the next...

  17. #17
    Senior Member Array D'Artag-NOT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jeebus
    Fun? Fun?! Who told you fencing was fun? You sir have been done a disservice. Fencing is hard work; fencing is a struggle; fencing is never, ever fun! IF you aren't out there training for at least four hours a day, eight days a week, you shouldn't even bother showing up to any competitions! Bah! Second-rate fence-for-fun types- I thought they rounded all those fellows up and shot them out back behind the USFA's giant barn! ( )
    Good news, BJ--the pharmacy called and your chill pills are in.
    "Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never . . . never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense." Churchill, 1941

  18. #18
    Din Älskling Array esskreemr's Avatar
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    Right of Way is like a rose:

    1) One person says "Ahhhh! It smells so sweet. It is the fragrance that makes the Rose the "Queen of Flowers!"

    2) Another: "Its fragrance is lovely, but it is the delicate silky-smooth texture of the petals that I hold most dear."

    3) A different person: "No! It is wonderful to touch but it is the color, so elegant, that makes the rose the royalty of the floral world!"

    4) And yet another: "You're all wrong! When I hold the Rose, its thorns prick my skin until I bleed! I therefore cast the Rose away and will instead choose a daisy. Is not its smell good enough? Is not its petals soft and smooth enough? Is not its color still fair enough to the eye?

    5) The last person shakes his head and says "It is because you do not understand the Rose that you settle for the daisy. The Rose wounds you because you do not know how to hold it properly. Don't let the pricks convince you that the Rose is no better than the lesser flowers."
    "Since when does being a patriot in America mean shutting your mouth?"
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    zz,zz,zz,zz,zz,zz!

  19. #19
    Senior Member Array Black Jeebus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D'Artag-NOT
    Good news, BJ--the pharmacy called and your chill pills are in.
    When can I pick them up. I need something to curb my obssessive cumpulsive need to belittle fencers of a lower caliber than me (unfortunately this need forces me to scour the Earth for blind people that I can teach to hold a weapon ).

    EDIT: All joking aside- I do usually enjoy fencing.
    Last edited by Black Jeebus; 11-06-2005 at 11:15 PM.
    Hello.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inquartata
    I don't think he's saying he has no clue how to score, just that he's had conflicting opinions on how ROW is defined. I can't remember how many years I fenced without understanding why I was always getting called "in preparation" and thus losing ROW. A lot, anyway...and yet I still won bouts somehow.

    Not understanding how ROW is being called scarcely constitutes "not knowing the rules". Especially when it sometimes seem to change from one referee to the next...
    His post is pretty vague about what he does or doesn't know. So he may well have a better understanding than I'm giving him credit for. However, if he's coming to the internet to find out rules to sabre when he's got a coach, I'd say that coach was not doing his job.
    A kid can become pretty competent in understanding ROW pretty quickly. Before someone goes off to a competition, he ought to feel confident that he generally understands what is going on.

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