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Jisahn · 08-05-2002, 06:52 PM

Most fencers employ parries that end with the point slightly outside of the body-line (as seen in French/Italian methodologies).

On the other hand, there are those of us who parry in-line; ie, always keeping the point of the blade "on the opponent".

Although I first saw this type of parry in the '80s, I still have no idea where it orginiated. Any ideas and additional thoughts concerning this method vs the traditional?

[ 08-07-2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: webmaster ]

135711 · 08-05-2002, 07:06 PM

it may have come out of the epee school of training, and it makes a lot of sence. foilist should try to use epee techniques as much as possible.

attila · 08-05-2002, 08:42 PM

Parries are rather perfunctory. It matters little how you parry if you can't land the riposte.....

Inquartata · 08-05-2002, 09:35 PM

I would venture to say that you have the labels reversed---the little lightning tap-parries are the more modern invention, and the ones which keep the point in line while deflecting the opponent's blade with the forte or guard are more "traditional".

In the days of the rapier, and even the smallsword, it was easier to do them in the latter fashion than to move the whole heavy blade back and forth...

More prudent, too, to keep threatening your opponent whenever possible---no such thing as ROW when points are sharp!

[ 08-06-2002, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Inquartata ]

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-06-2002, 09:48 AM

The parry in which the blade brings the point out is a very traditional parry. This is so, imo, because it allowed sight judges to more easily distinguish a parry. Clean form was fairly essentoal to allow the sight judge to see the action clearly since there weren't buzzers going off.

My club still expresses that the dry parry is the way to go. It makes directing that much easier and it results, in our opinion, in less double touches. In a dueling sense, a double touch is not a very desireable outcome unless the offended party is so hurt that he simply wants to take the bastard with him.

Inq, I know that we teach in epee to keep the point in line as much as possible, but there are still advantages from varrying the parrys to include the traditional parry. It does make us less predictable and it allows us to really lock the other guy out from performing a valid remise of the attack into our counterattack. I've been very sucessful at locking out my oppoent in a contra-de-sixte to where all I do is step in. They opponent usually is too shocked to step back quickly enough to get out of it.

In the early days of epee, bouts were fenced outside and to one touch. If both hit nearly at the same time, the action wasn't thrown out for another try, it was a double touch and neither won. If I am thinking right, I believe in those days it was round robin at least. At any rate, these stipulations made a dry epee exceptionally tense and cautios. The taking of the blade was highly prevalent because its the best way to avoid a double touch in the sense that it was then.

With the advent of electrical scoring appartatus, the timer was set to lock out the touch after 1/25 of a second. Therefore, a double touch in the eyes of a human may be performed, but there was just enough difference in the time of hit to lock out the other touch. Also, bouts were fought indoors and to 5 then 10 and now 15 touches.

With these technological changes comes a positive and negative change in the epeests' mindset.

On the positive, the epeeist must be proficient with many different strokes to be able to counter most anything he or she may see on the piste. This means that an epeeist who perfects one "secret thrust" is at a great loss because he'll only dupe his man once. After that, he's on his own. This is forced the modern epeeist to be versitile.

On the negative, much of the caution and psychological aspects of the weapon are lost as the value of a single touch is inflated. In a real duel, I would be insane to perform an action such as a fleche straight to the body, as my only intention is hitting before my opponent hits.

Many, many epeeists see no problem with this negative side. After all, we aren't fencing a duel are we? No, its just a sport like any other; only we use swords. However, I think that when we loose that historic mindset, you loose much of the spirit that an epee duel must have had.

I personally see both sides of this argument within myself. In one way, I like the 15 touches because it allows me to fence more and it means that if I make a mistake, I can bring myself back. My finest epee bout saw me down 3-8 till I fought my way back to 15-11. At the same time, think about the added depth of a 1 touch epee bout. Extreme caution and deliberation must be used for a successful conclusion to come about. Sure, plenty of bouts would end within moments of the cry "allez" as one or both launch into a full fleche hoping to take the other by suprise. Within time, this would become less prevalent since every coach and their dog would teach their students exactly how to handle such a move. After time, the one touch bout would be a duel between giants and both fencers would perform quick actions in order to judge the reaction, or lack of, that they get out of their opponent. We'd see a great deal more mental aspect to our game, and less phsyical.

Now many people purely love the physical game of 15 touches as well. Perhaps the USFA should consider making a separate event of one touch epee. I am aware that the Pentathalon does that, but we are fencers, not Pentathalon athletes.

If we got this one touch epee into our tournaments, I'd fence both. Both serve their purpose and compliment each other well.

veeco · 08-06-2002, 10:07 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
 After time, the one touch bout would be a duel between giants and both fencers would perform quick actions in order to judge the reaction, or lack of, that they get out of their opponent. We'd see a great deal more mental aspect to our game, and less phsyical.
<hr /></blockquote>Actually, if you read the thread on the Modern Pentathlon World Championships, you will see that a lot of people found that the fencing was not as you described. Instead of a mental game like it is in a 15 touch bout, it is a very physical game, where the big guys have an advantage no matter how technically advanced the smaller ones are.

I think this is because in a one touch situation, it's easier to force a touch with a hack touch than to win a 15 touch bout on one trick as you said.
Sure, as you said, we would be prepared for the next time, but in the meantime, it would be too late, you would have lost that bout.

In a 15 touch bout, if I score the first touch, I have an advantage, but I also told something about myself to my opponent, so there is a sort of balance that happens (i.e. see the tactical wheel exercises on this site).

This type of tactical setting cannot happen in a one touch bout, and I would argue that even over, let's say, the course of 10 one touch bout competition, in a set of one touch bouts between 2 opponents, this tactical wheel will not take place. There is just no way that one person can remember how each of the other 30 people on the previous competition hit them. So some "one trick ponies" are likely to get more than one shot at it.

And mind you, the "one trick" cannot necessarily be the same for all the fencers you're going to fence that day. Or coaches might set up different tricks for the same fencer throughout the year.

No, really, I'll take a 15 touch bout, anytime.

three_hundred_fifty_five · 08-06-2002, 11:43 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jisahn:
Most fencers employ parries that end with the point slightly outside of the body-line (as seen in French/Italian methodologies).

On the other hand, there are those of us who parry in-line; ie, always keeping the point of the blade "on the opponent".

Although I first saw this type of parry in the '80s, I still have no idea where it orginiated. Any ideas and additional thoughts concerning this method vs the traditional?<hr /></blockquote>Usually, you end up doing a parry the way your coach tells you to do it. If you lose at a tournament because of it, you will hear no end of it at your next lesson.

Cheers.

Jisahn · 08-06-2002, 06:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
it may have come out of the epee school of training, and it makes a lot of sence. foilist should try to use epee techniques as much as possible.<hr /></blockquote>Ah. Actually, I've never trained epee. I should make further inquiries at the club. Thanks.

Jisahn · 08-06-2002, 06:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by attila:
Parries are rather perfunctory. It matters little how you parry if you can't land the riposte.....<hr /></blockquote>Outstanding quote

! From what literary masterpiece does it come?

In regards to your statement, however, I must disagree (at least as foil is concerned). Right of way, and all that business. The concept behind the inline parry is you always have the point on the target and avoid wild manuevering. Even if you should not find the opponent's blade, you've got your own, at length, protecting you.

Jisahn · 08-06-2002, 06:23 PM

In regards to fencing as a sport, and not a means of survival, I refer to "traditional" as anything prior to electric competition. As we all know, this event altered the face of our game significantly.

Aldo Nadi fenced in the early half of this century, and he utilized the "out of line" parry. Most people I see fence, also parry in this fashion.

Still, I agree with you that heavier swords of the past were very likely used in the fashion you described. Thanks for the input!

***Craig*** · 08-07-2002, 09:59 AM

please don't use all caps for subject lines.

I've edited this post to comply...

135711 · 08-07-2002, 07:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
it may have come out of the epee school of training, and it makes a lot of sence. foilist should try to use epee techniques as much as possible.<hr /></blockquote>Correction: foilist, may wish to employ the techniques of some epeeist during their bouts.

attila · 08-07-2002, 10:45 PM

Hi Jishan

The quote is from "Fencing the Fat Boy way"-- a work in progress. In line parries are Ok . But it is mainly for the rookies. If only the whole world attacked or riposted to the 4 line. Of course a great parry 4 will get you a riposte in 4, 7, or 8. But a great off line parry will give you all those plus a flick to flank(8), a shoulder flick and even a disengage in 8, 6 or even roll it into counter sixte.