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fencergal33 · 10-31-2005, 04:33 PM

Ok....I was at a tournament this weekend with no grounded strips. In my epee pool, Mr. A gets hit in the foot several times by the same opponent. He says it was the floor. The opponent and all other fencers in the pool say it was his foot. The referee, fairly inexperienced but a good guy, lets Mr. A bully him into throwing the touches out each time, by talking about the "doubtful double" rule and how it is to be enforced in this situation. He's ranting and crazy about this rule, and then after the tirade, says "but you're the referee, you make the call."

I've never actually heard about the "doubtful double" rule. Can someone enlighten me further (and explain better than stark raving mad Mr. A)?

Mr Epee · 10-31-2005, 04:36 PM

Double touch.

Fencer A's touch - good
Fencer B's touch - doubtful

Fencer A is allowed to decide if this touch stands as a double, or have both points thrown out....

It's pretty obscure, and I'm not sure I've ever seen this rule applied.

I don't see how that would have applied to the situation you discribed.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 10-31-2005, 04:40 PM

I've seen it applied, even at the y-14 level. The ref was a level 1 epee ref, which makes me question why they would put a level 1 epee ref to do y-14.......

jBirch · 10-31-2005, 04:41 PM

Yeah, it only applies to cases of double touches. If there is only one light, the question is one of subjectivity: did the fencer hit the foot or not? If yes, give the point. If no, then it's the same as accidentally hitting off piste: no point, en garde.

James.

KD5MDK · 10-31-2005, 05:12 PM

It is as they say.

DFP: Maybe they knew you were in it and assigned the level 1 ref to keep you from making trouble.

HDG · 10-31-2005, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Double touch.

Fencer A's touch - good
Fencer B's touch - doubtful

Fencer A is allowed to decide if this touch stands as a double, or have both points thrown out....

It's pretty obscure, and I'm not sure I've ever seen this rule applied.

I don't see how that would have applied to the situation you discribed.

It's not that obscure, it's on the exam.

Allen Evans · 10-31-2005, 08:55 PM

I often find myself refereeing at epee tournaments without the benefit of a grounded strip. I always announce at the start of a pool or DE bout: "As you may have noticed, we're fencing on a non-grounded surface. I would hope that all of you would be honest about acknowledging floor and foot touches. If you do not, I will make the decision, and there will be NO appeal."

This usually keeps the little savages in line.

Araznal · 10-31-2005, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Double touch.

Fencer A's touch - good
Fencer B's touch - doubtful

Fencer A is allowed to decide if this touch stands as a double, or have both points thrown out....

It's pretty obscure, and I'm not sure I've ever seen this rule applied.

I don't see how that would have applied to the situation you discribed.

Huh, I should have double checked that section of the rules before I flunked my referee test yesterday.

Wouldn't have mattered anyway, since I failed the general question section. Vaguest questions I've ever seen...

oiuyt · 10-31-2005, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araznal

Wouldn't have mattered anyway, since I failed the general question section. Vaguest questions I've ever seen...

Which might be a valid complaint IF THEY DIDN'T PUBLISH THE %#^#@#%@ING QUESTION BANK!

No one should be surprised by ANY of the questions on the referee exam, the FOC publishes a "study guide" which includes all of them.

-B

Araznal · 11-01-2005, 12:17 AM

The study guide was a big help, but, I mean, when George Kolombatovich is saying, "yeah, you're right, that doesn't make any sense, just ignore that question" for more than one question, then there's something wrong there.

Though I have to say, after being at that seminar for 9 hours (George went VERY in depth), I'm pretty sure I could ace that test if given another opportunity.

Zilverzmurfen · 11-01-2005, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencergal33

I've never actually heard about the "doubtful double" rule.

I've actually never heard of any "doubtful double" rule either. (It might just be called something else in swedish...)

The general rule if there is unceratinty is to not give out a point. Did the ref actually see what happened? If he didn't and is uncertain then he has to annul the touche.

PeterGustafsson · 11-01-2005, 03:27 AM

Hi!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

I've actually never heard of any "doubtful double" rule either. (It might just be called something else in swedish...)

Björn Lindholm dealt with the subject at the referee course in Örebro a few weeks ago.

"I tveksamma fall, när apparaten indikerar double men där ena träffen kan vara på annan ojordad yta än motståndaren och den andra träffen är uppenbart giltig, skall domaren antigen döma double eller ogiltigförklara bägge stötarna, i enlighet med önskan av den fäktare som uppenbart träffat på giltig yta."

Cite from memory, but the gist of it is correct. Björne Väggö from GFK is a high-level certified epee ref, he can probably cite you chapter and verse.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

Zilverzmurfen · 11-01-2005, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Björne Väggö from GFK is a high-level certified epee ref, he can probably cite you chapter and verse.

Björne is from KF99. He hasn't fenced for my club since he took his Olympic medal.

Nonetheless, I'll look it up. Göran Abrahamsson ought to know, I'll ask him next time he turns up at the club. Thanks, Peter!

ReverseLunge · 11-01-2005, 04:19 AM

One time at a tourny I went for a guys foot and missed by about a mile but somehow the director gave it to me but was kind of unsure. My opponent said no and I said it was up to the director. He gave me the point and my opponent was fuming and staring me down. After the bout (which I won) he came up to me and said, "You know that you didn't hit my foot." and I said to him, "No I don't."

That's how it has to be. For every free shot you get you will get one against you. When it come time to be honest SHUT THE HELL UP no matter what.

telkanuru · 11-01-2005, 04:28 AM

I just fence on grounded strips...

Or, ask for foot judges...

Zilverzmurfen · 11-01-2005, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

One time at a tourny I went for a guys foot and missed by about a mile but somehow the director gave it to me but was kind of unsure. My opponent said no and I said it was up to the director.

You just got 'lucky' then.

Again, if the ref is uncertain of whether a touch is valid or not he can not give the fencer a point.

ReverseLunge · 11-01-2005, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

You just got 'lucky' then.

Again, if the ref is uncertain of whether a touch is valid or not he can not give the fencer a point.

No. He gave me the point and then my opponent protested. That is what made him uncomfy. Stop talking to me I honestly hate you.

Durando · 11-01-2005, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

No. He gave me the point and then my opponent protested. That is what made him uncomfy. Stop talking to me I honestly hate you.

Then you probably hate me too when I say you have a serious lack of honor, if indeed you did miss his foot by a mile, as you wrote.

Zilverzmurfen · 11-01-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

No. He gave me the point and then my opponent protested. That is what made him uncomfy. Stop talking to me I honestly hate you.

You're showing your age a bit here, RL. Why don't you go and play with your pimples or something..? Or practice foot touches.

Gav · 11-01-2005, 06:59 AM

Sorry about deleting all of those posts. We were getting into the realms of 'unacceptable'. Back to the regular discussion.