Rülz question

[mrbiggs]

Well, my teammate today got carded for a rule I've never heard of. And, unfortunately, none of our club blades passed this rule. So I'm looking for some expert advice.

So, we use two prong. My coach wires the blades so that the wire goes below the pad, over the long part of the socket, down through the hole, and then is connected to the lower part of the socket. ("lower" means closer to the guard.)

This ref claimed it was illegal, and that it allowed a fencer to pull the wire out of the socket with his thumb. I've never heard of this, and I don't think it makes sense. Was he correct?

Oh, and a backup question, will this ever be enforced at another local tournament I attend?

[downunder]

its a bit hard to understand what the set up actually is.

If it happens to you at a tournament, use a DT call, and get the armorers to check it out.

[keropie]

I've never heard that it's illegal, though it is not the way the socket is 'designed.' As I'm sure the ref told you, you're 'supposed' to go up from the guard through the hole and attach to the 'top' of the post. However, my coach has been wiring blades your way for as long as he's been using two prong sockets (which is at least 15 years).

At least it's an easy fix for the future?

[Purple Fencer]

Quick way to solve this....next time a ref calls someone on it...tell them to "show me the rule in the rulebook."

Good luck finding it...

Further, since this is a foil, exactly HOW would a fencing pulling the wire out really benefit the fencer? It's not a trigger like shorting epee wires...there's no way that removing the wire from the B socket will result in any benefit to the fencer, aside from stopping the action once because of a "faulty" weapon....there's no way to redirect the signal thorugh the opponent's A line to the box.

And if the wire's on the underside, HOW can anyone get a finger on it in the first place?

For the record...I showed Dan Dechaine a design for a B socket adapter for the Uhlmann type 2 pin socket....the actual wire connection's underneath the bracket...nothing from Dan about it being illegal....I seem to recall he liked the idea...I should have a propotype fairly soon.

The ref's pulling a rule out of his ***...m.3 refers to connectgions inside the guard, but those are between the body cord and the socket, NOT how the wire is attached. Further, the only foil rule dealing with the blade wire is m.10, but that only says that "the foil has a single groove cut the whole length of the blade, which permanently connects the pointe d'arret to the corresponding socket inside the guard"

Next time you get called on it, call the director on it....no rule on the book, no rule violation and thus, no card.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by downunder

its a bit hard to understand what the set up actually is.

If it happens to you at a tournament, use a DT call, and get the armorers to check it out.

Well, there were no armorers, as it was a local tournament. My teammate didn't call the bout committee (I think he should've), I'm just wondering so I know if I have to make sure all my blades are fine for the future.

Also, my coach still has 20 or so blades he needs to redo the socket on if it really is illegal.

Here's a diagram of what I'm talking about:

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Quick way to solve this....next time a ref calls someone on it...tell them to "show me the rule in the rulebook."

Good luck finding it...

Further, since this is a foil, exactly HOW would a fencing pulling the wire out really benefit the fencer? It's not a trigger like shorting epee wires...there's no way that removing the wire from the B socket will result in any benefit to the fencer, aside from stopping the action once because of a "faulty" weapon....there's no way to redirect the signal thorugh the opponent's A line to the box.

And if the wire's on the underside, HOW can anyone get a finger on it in the first place?

For the record...I showed Dan Dechaine a design for a B socket adapter for the Uhlmann type 2 pin socket....the actual wire connection's underneath the bracket...nothing from Dan about it being illegal....I seem to recall he liked the idea...I should have a propotype fairly soon.

The ref's pulling a rule out of his ***...m.3 refers to connectgions inside the guard, but those are between the body cord and the socket, NOT how the wire is attached. Further, the only foil rule dealing with the blade wire is m.10, but that only says that "the foil has a single groove cut the whole length of the blade, which permanently connects the pointe d'arret to the corresponding socket inside the guard"

Next time you get called on it, call the director on it....no rule on the book, no rule violation and thus, no card.

Wow, thanks.

(I guess my old post doesn't matter now. But I'll leave it up for clarity.)

Yeah, I didn't understand the whole why thing, either.

Again, thank you.

[larkmaj]

Out of curiosity where was this tournament? and what club do you fence for?

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Well, there were no armorers, as it was a local tournament. My teammate didn't call the bout committee (I think he should've), I'm just wondering so I know if I have to make sure all my blades are fine for the future.

Also, my coach still has 20 or so blades he needs to redo the socket on if it really is illegal.

Here's a diagram of what I'm talking about:

Yeah...I thought that's how your setup was....I do the same thing, except I don't even go through the bracket hole....just straight to the nut on the underside..

There is NOTHING illegal about it....nada, zilch, nuttin', show me the rulebook....

You're good...

The wires on an EPEE socket should come in from the back (guard) side of the socket to keep the wires away from the fingers, but in epee such a rule actually has meaning.

BTW...if you REALLY wanna piss off a director who thinks he knows a particular rule, tape down the wires inside an epee bell guard with CLEAR tape, making sure the wires are clearly separated. When the director tells you it;s illegal, tell him to show you the rule...it ain't there.

The director must be able to determine with ease (i.e., naked eye) that the wires cannot be shorted and switch is not hidden...if the wires are clearly separate, in individual sheaths, and NO PART of the wires are hidden (not counting hte insulating sheath, of course) then it;s good.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

BTW...if you REALLY wanna piss off a director who thinks he knows a particular rule, tape down the wires inside an epee bell guard with CLEAR tape, making sure the wires are clearly separated. When the director tells you it;s illegal, tell him to show you the rule...it ain't there

never a good idae to piss off your referee, in any weapons...

[KD5MDK]

Of course, that's why we're always reminded at the beginning of every tournament that clear tape is permitted.

Further, since this is a foil, exactly HOW would a fencing pulling the wire out really benefit the fencer? It's not a trigger like shorting epee wires...there's no way that removing the wire from the B socket will result in any benefit to the fencer, aside from stopping the action once because of a "faulty" weapon....there's no way to redirect the signal thorugh the opponent's A line to the box.

If a fencer has the ability to cause an off target light at will, they could use it to avoid an opponent's attack by triggering it and then retreating just enough to make 350ms expire.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by downunder

never a good idae to piss off your referee, in any weapons...

Kinda like pissing off the armorer!

I didn;t say it was a GOOD idea!

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

If a fencer has the ability to cause an off target light at will, they could use it to avoid an opponent's attack by triggering it and then retreating just enough to make 350ms expire.

Yeah, but if you pull the wire out of the socket, it'll keep going off target.

[DHCJr]

Sam, you need to work on the rulebook a bit. First, I think you meant M.5.3, Not M.3. Also you might look at M.5.2. How the wire was connected COULD be called illegal, but so COULD the correct way. How much play in the wire? When it is done the correct way and the excess is pulled back down, there is nothing you could grab. Now the way it was done there is a lot of play.

Here is a question, which no one asked. What was the thumb pad like. Did it have a cut-out for the connector? If it did, then if I was there I would say it was Illegal. If the wire was taped to the connector, that would cover the 2nd paragraph of M.5.2, but some might think it was illegal for tape.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Sam, you need to work on the rulebook a bit. First, I think you meant M.5.3, Not M.3. Also you might look at M.5.2. How the wire was connected COULD be called illegal, but so COULD the correct way. How much play in the wire? When it is done the correct way and the excess is pulled back down, there is nothing you could grab. Now the way it was done there is a lot of play.

Here is a question, which no one asked. What was the thumb pad like. Did it have a cut-out for the connector? If it did, then if I was there I would say it was Illegal. If the wire was taped to the connector, that would cover the 2nd paragraph of M.5.2, but some might think it was illegal for tape.

The thumb pad was normal. The wire went under the thumb pad, over the long part of the socket, down through the hole, and attached to the bottom of the socket. There was no significant slack.

[DHCJr]

They would still have a leg to stand on, but it would be a shaky one. The fencer could push the pad aside and have access to the wire.

For a complete uncut full size thumb pad, if I were asked would say let them fence with it. If they would fail for that, did they also ban every thumb pad that had a cut out or had gotten so worn so bad they were loose? No need to answer A rules Nazi can fail just about anything. The trouble is there would be no fencing.

I am sorry you had that experience.

[fencerbill]

My logic for wiring with the wire going down through the hole is that the opponent's Foil is less likely to catch the wire and break it. I also wrap the wire around the bracket to use up the extra.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

They would still have a leg to stand on, but it would be a shaky one. The fencer could push the pad aside and have access to the wire.

For a complete uncut full size thumb pad, if I were asked would say let them fence with it. If they would fail for that, did they also ban every thumb pad that had a cut out or had gotten so worn so bad they were loose? No need to answer A rules Nazi can fail just about anything. The trouble is there would be no fencing.

I am sorry you had that experience.

No problem. Thank you very much for your help.