Uniform color

[epeemike81]

oiuyt (or however it's spelled ):

The costs which Inquartata spoke of apparantly applied to colors, not lexan.


-m

[veeco]

The cost of changing uniforms to have colored ones (one can imagine that the IOC would require fencers to have colored uniforms representing their country's colors) would still be quite a burden on the federations and NGBs...

Then when we start hiring fashion designers to design our uniforms, I'll probably stop fencing and go and give a try at curling.

[Peach]

I must be such a dim bulb, I really don't get it--so many of the fencers at my club are also cyclists, and they're perfectly happy to wear what I consider the most extraordinarily garish and unflattering outfits without thinking about it twice, while they shudder at the idea of anything but white when they're fencing. I have read this discussion with interest and remain unconvinced that the introduction of color would do much except make it easier to find someone in the venue, but obviously I don't grasp the profundity of the issue, as usual.

--Delia

[Inquartata]

<STRONG>Ahh... the immortal "them". Have you seen a psychiatrist about these paranoid delusions</STRONG>

As the saying goes, "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean there isn't someone out to get you".

Actually, I think it's more of a deepseated cynicism about human nature and the apparently boundless lengths to which people are willing to go in their quest for money and power over the lives of others than paranoia...though maybe it's a distinction without a difference. At any rate, at least I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat just yet!

<STRONG>I would appreciate a clarification on what money (or political capital, for that matter) would be wasted.</STRONG>

Any expended by, say, the FIE in an attempt to keep Olympic status, whether by lobbying or, by changing rules and dictating different equipment in pursuit of TV appeal, thus forcing the expense onto individual athletes, clubs, etc. ( Should they be expended and the effort to keep fencing in the Games still fail, I daresay that even those who view Olympic status as a vital interest would consider them "wasted". )

<STRONG>ahhh.... but reductio absurdam cannot apply to that which is already absurd</STRONG>

But that's absurd! he he!

<STRONG>. My point was not that integral rules could NEVER be changed, but rather that this particular non-integral one SHOULD be changed. As for the strip size bull, its not that the strip size can NEVER be changed, you would just need a better justification than tv ratings</STRONG>

Still, the standards which you proffered for use in judging which rules should be subject to change were broad enough to apply to others. If you really are in fact only applying them to this one isolated instance, then it all comes back to personal opinion again...

As to your second statement, I agree wholeheartedly, and would go further to say that no rules should be altered merely to enhance tv ratings.

<STRONG>The issue isn't whether it is a good idea to wear colors, but rather that fencers and teams should have the right to choose that</STRONG>

Just so, if it were only a matter affecting them. Your point is valid with regard to directors biased against those who choose an outre appearance, but not with regard to those who do not so choose and may suffer from biases for the eccentrics...

<STRONG>right now, fencing is a monitary drain on the Olympics. Raise the profile of the sport, and it becomes valuable to the IOC. THAT is the reason</STRONG>

Surely you are not arguing that, whether in the Olympics or elsewhere, the only worthwhile things are those which are profitable?! Or that conversely nothing which forms a "monetary drain" on an institution should be retained for other, perhaps more noble reasons? ( Which would seem to be a position growing in popularity in the IOC. )

<STRONG>the only reason that fatigues do NOT vary (excluding patches) from nation to nation is that there is a utilitarian reason for the colors used</STRONG>

I take it that you are referring to the effects of camouflaging the wearers in combat. But this scarcely applies to those who still must needs dress in fatigues while carrying out duties far from the front lines, especially in peacetime. ( In my days in the military we worn fatigues of olive drab, not camo patterns, but I spent six years in them performing duties for which the color was no more utilitarian than are fencing whites for our sport. )

If you had a different utilitarian reason in mind, let me know.

<STRONG>imo, the disciplinary problems have nothing to do with colors (which most of the people I know who get black carded do NOT wear) than it has to do with societal changes</STRONG>

Which are exacerbated by the cult of "individuality for its own sake", in which "personal expression" comes to be considered a goal more sacred than any other and which results in individuality having to be proved via ever greater degrees of eccentricity...

<STRONG>
I take it that this is basically saying that you wouldn't mind not being in the olympics
</STRONG>

All other things being equal, I would prefer fencing retain its time-honored place in the Olympics. I just do not feel that that end justifies any and all means, or that retention at the cost of prostitution is acceptable. ( Individual views of what constitutes "prostitution" of the sport will of course vary; mine are perhaps more extreme than most. Even I would not say that the permission of colored uniforms steps over that line in itself---but it is symptomatic of a larger trend in that direction. )

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Peach:
<STRONG>I have read this discussion with interest and remain unconvinced that the introduction of color would do much except make it easier to find someone in the venue, but obviously I don't grasp the profundity of the issue, as usual.

--Delia</STRONG>

Ah, Delia! It may be only that some of us love nothing more than a good, stimulating argument, and that the topic is in many cases secondary...

( I will whisper something into your shell-like, if you promise not to tell: I actually frown upon the vast majority of attempts by governing bodies, whether statist or NGO, to encroach upon individual freedoms and personal choices. In my heart of hearts I agree for the most part with Mike on this issue: I think colored lames and uniforms are ugly and I fervently hope that they prove no more than a passing fad, but I cannot see why it should be forbidden by executive fiat. It's just that I have been retained by the Devil for this particular case and must therefore be his advocate at present.... )

Ahem! Now then---do you think it would necessarily be easier to pick someone out of a crowd dressed in a riot of rainbow colours than out of a sea of white-and-silver? ( As it is I cannot count how many different salles and schools go about in red-and-black warm-ups, and they all look alike from across a wide venue... )

[Peach]

Originally posted by Inquartata:
<STRONG>Ah, Delia! It may be only that some of us love nothing more than a good, stimulating argument, and that the topic is in many cases secondary...</STRONG>

OOOOOooooooh... argument for the sake of argument. Jeez, you'da thunk I'd never spent any time online.

<STRONG>Ahem! Now then---do you think it would necessarily be easier to pick someone out of a crowd dressed in a riot of rainbow colours than out of a sea of white-and-silver? ( As it is I cannot count how many different salles and schools go about in red-and-black warm-ups, and they all look alike from across a wide venue... )</STRONG>

Ah, but my club is red-YELLOW-and-black, which makes all the difference.
I do know it's darn hard to find people in the venue at national events, and that's explicitly part of the reason our club has such bright warm-ups. That, and my coach has taste so loud you have to wear hearing aids for a while after looking at him.

As a referee, I often can't see the names of either fencer on their uniforms when they're fencing (they may have it, but it doesn't show if it's on the other side) and I'll explicitly say their names ("Skeesiks to my left, Gurble to my right") before I start the bout so they have a chance to correct me. I can't tell you how much time I've wasted as a spectator trying to figure out which fencer was which, whether live or on video. I've been halfway through a bout before I realized I was cheering for the wrong fencer. And the only way I found Sam in Sacramento (I was looking for people from here all week) was the purple socks, but that's a horse of a different color.

Would color help with that? I dunno. I also often spend considerable time I could be using more productively trying to figure out which football or baseball team is which on TV. It helps if you have a clue beforehand.

--Delia

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Inquartata:
<STRONG>

I actually frown upon the vast majority of attempts by governing bodies, whether statist or NGO, to encroach upon individual freedoms and personal choices. In my heart of hearts I agree for the most part with Mike on this issue</STRONG>

I am taking this opportunity to declare victory in this debate, since you have so CLEARLY been swayed by my persuasive arguments.

Discussion over.

Craig, you can close the thread, if you want. (PLEASE, Craig, close the thread)

-m

[Zelda]

ITS STILL OPEN!!! (Sorry Mike couldnt resist!!!)

[Inquartata]

Hey! Someone is making scurrilous posts in my name! "agree with Mike", indeed!