What jokes should be allowed?

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


From the "Stewart Smalley" thread:

Ah, but that's the trick isn't it? Knowing who you can and can't use in particular skits or situations...

I mean, I saw this Home Depot commercial, and this worker is showing this amazing tool to this woman. The worker goes on to list all these great features of this tool, and finishes, with 'well, it can do just about everything!' and the woman, 'Oh, so you mean I don't need him?' with a smile, and the camera pans to this guy (her husband) trying to stick a plunger to his forehead (unsuccessfully I might add).

Now, if the roles were reversed, and the guy was at Bed, Bath, and Beyond looking at some kitchen or cleaning tool, and the camera panned to a woman doing something stupid, how long do you think that would last?

I mean take a look at a lot of the sitcoms out there and their portrayal of the father's or men in them. If the women were portrayed in an equal fashion to Homer Simpson, the shows wouldn't last long due to complaints...

I would like to start a discussion about who can joke about who, and for what reason. That topic is written about in the Stweart Smalley thread, but since it also contains other topics I thought it best to give its own thread.

I for one, dislike the sheer number of jokes on men. As an example, one can find numerous examples of when it is intended to be funny when a guy gets hit in the nuts, but jokes about clumsy/clueless/evil women hurting themselves in the privates do not fly.

It is true that most of the powerful people in the world are men. The converse, however is not true. Most men have no one except maybe their children to boss over. That means that most men have not much power, but are still the butts of a lot of jokes in media. The ad retold above by Achilleus is a good example, I can recall lots of other ad jokes where the man is a doofus, but none where the woman is one.

I personally think that it has gone beyond the point of being funny, and has crossed well into the territory of tiresome, demeaning, and unfunny. If oter people think that they should have the right to incessantly joke about a group of people that I happen to belong to, I think that I should have the right to shoot off equally nasty jokes in retaliation.

What is you take on this? Any weblinks? Any perspective from the ad industry? Any recent examples of jokes in media going the other way? Any logical rebuttal? Anything else?

About the poll: When I write "acceptable" I mean whether those jokes should be considered acceptable to write/say/publish, not whether they are fun on an individual basis. Please only consider jokes such that their converse (woman making fun of a man, everything else held same) was one you would find acceptable.



Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[annacattiva]

You forgot the option "This poll is flawed." Just kidding, really, but I think that you should have included options for believing that there is a time and place for such jokes, as well as an audience, a situation, a relationship between the joke teller and the audience, and a set of jokes which are more funny and less offensive than others.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

If you reverse the genders, and a woman would find it offensive, then no, its not appropriate. Thats not how our society works any more though.

[bmcfencer]

As you have said, it is an issue of power (just like prejudice against someone of another "race" is only racism if your "race" is the one in a position of power). Whatever you may say about individual men, it is still true that men earn more money, are elected to more political positions, are more likely to be taken seriously under a great many circumstances, and have historically been the ones "in power". Jokes about women are dangerous because they still stink of the sexism that has held anyone female to be automatically inferior.

So I believe women shouldn't make jokes about men for the opposite reason. Joking about men as inferior people strengthens the idea that we are powerless as our jokes are taken as harmless fun. Women may be becoming more powerfull in the world, but sexism is still out there (see thread on Women's Colleges) and degrading the other gender doesn't help our cause at all. At least, in my opinion.

I remember a conversation I had with one of my guy friends where I mentioned how interested I was in gender issues. He immediatly asked defensively why I thought women were better than men and then refused to allow me to declare that "gender issues" is a topic that addresses the problems men face in society as well as women. Gender roles affect everyone, and in many ways adversely. "Girl Power" leaves out half of the population.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

M*therf*ckers gotta respect each other!!!

[Amadeus]

yep. Men can't make the same jokes about women that women can about men. why is this? Because women still make something like $.70 for every dollar a man makes, for the same work. (I don't know the exact statistic.) So we're the butt of more jokes, but we get better jobs.

I'll take it.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

You forgot the option "This poll is flawed." Just kidding, really, but I think that you should have included options for believing that there is a time and place for such jokes, as well as an audience, a situation, a relationship between the joke teller and the audience, and a set of jokes which are more funny and less offensive than others.

Obviously there is a time,place,etc for a given joke. I intended to cover that with the last paragraph in my first post. However, I think that the "relationship" is overplayed in what is considered acceptable today.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[ReverseLunge]

Q: How many men does it take to open a beer?
A; None. It should be opened by the time she brings it.

Q: Why is a Laundromat a really bad place to pick up women?
A: Because a woman who can't even afford a washing machine will never be able to support you.

Q: Why do women have smaller feet then men?
A: So they can stand closer to the kitchen sink.

Q: How do you fix a women's watch?
A: You don't. There's a clock on the oven.

Q: Why do men pass more gas than women do?
A: Because women don't shut up long enough to build up pressure.

Q: If your dog is barking at the back door and your wife is yelling at the front door, which do you let in first?
A: The dog of course. At least he'll shut up after you let him in.

Q: What's worse than a male chauvinistic pig?
A: A women who won't do what she's told.

Q: What do you call a woman with two brain cells?
A: Pregnant.

Q: What do you call a woman who has lost 95% of her intelligence?
A: Divorced.

[ReverseLunge]

Signs of PMS

Everyone around you has an attitude problem.

You add chocolate chips to your cheese omelet.

The dryer has shrunk every last pair of your jeans.

Your husband is suddenly agreeing with everything you say.

You're using your cellular phone to dial up every bumper sticker that reads, "How's my driving--call 1-800-***-****."

Everyone's head looks like an invitation to batting practice.

You're convinced there's a God and he's male.

You're counting down the days until menopause.

You're sure that everyone is scheming to drive you crazy.

The ibuprofen bottle is empty and you bought it yesterday.

Three little letters (M, E, and N) send you into an uncontrollable rage.

[Have At You]

Yeah, there's tons of jokes about women out there. Given that men tell jokes WAY more than women do (wonder how come...), it is bizarre to hear anyone complaining that men are more often the butt of jokes than women.


However, it IS true that men are the butt of jokes, or just doofuses, in situation-based comedy on TV and in movies.

That is because the essence of humor is surprise -- a good punch line is something unexpected, yet which makes sense given what led up to it. If you present a situation typical of the viewer's real-life expectations, it's not going to be as funny.

What the predominance of male-buffoonery on TV comedies indicates, therefore, is that society continues to view men in real life as more likely to be a respectable leader in such situations.



So I'd say the premise underlying your concerns is incorrect, Peter, and that the reverse is in fact true.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

As you have said, it is an issue of power (just like prejudice against someone of another "race" is only racism if your "race" is the one in a position of power).

Well, I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on that particular point.

Whatever you may say about individual men, it is still true that men earn more money, are elected to more political positions, are more likely to be taken seriously under a great many circumstances, and have historically been the ones "in power".

True. However, most men have little of the power - other wise the powerful ones would not be so powerful!

Jokes about women are dangerous because they still stink of the sexism that has held anyone female to be automatically inferior.

So I believe women shouldn't make jokes about men for the opposite reason. Joking about men as inferior people strengthens the idea that we are powerless as our jokes are taken as harmless fun. Women may be becoming more powerfull in the world, but sexism is still out there (see thread on Women's Colleges) and degrading the other gender doesn't help our cause at all. At least, in my opinion.

Intresting! There is a reason that i have not seen forwarded before.

I remember a conversation I had with one of my guy friends where I mentioned how interested I was in gender issues. He immediatly asked defensively why I thought women were better than men and then refused to allow me to declare that "gender issues" is a topic that addresses the problems men face in society as well as women. Gender roles affect everyone, and in many ways adversely. "Girl Power" leaves out half of the population.

Well, if one looks at those who have jobs in Gender studies department at Universities one sees that it is heavily woman-dominated, and that they study stuff primarily from women´s perspective.

The defensiveness may come from him watching umpteen too many TV jokes on men, where men can, and do, mess up the easiest thing. (Come on, would you find any real man trying to attach a drain pipe plunger to his forehead??) For me, at least, it became unfunny somewhere after the 129th testicle-bashing joke.

For me, a good joke is a bad person getting his/her just desserts, nonwithstanding the gender/orientation/race/power/whatever of that person.

Power reversal as comedic element is totally unfunny to me. It may, depending on the plot, be something that I appreciate in a story, but not as a joke.



Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Yeah, there's tons of jokes about women out there. Given that men tell jokes WAY more than women do (wonder how come...), it is bizarre to hear anyone complaining that men are more often the butt of jokes than women.


However, it IS true that men are the butt of jokes, or just doofuses, in situation-based comedy on TV and in movies.

I guess that I should have been more specific in my 1st post - I was thinking about jokes in media (TV, papers, etc.) Jokes on web homepages are a little different - the joke publisher does not have to worry about the joke setting of sensibilities that will hurt the media economy.

I do not know about the people around you, but around me, men and women tend to joke roughly equally often.

That is because the essence of humor is surprise -- a good punch line is something unexpected, yet which makes sense given what led up to it. If you present a situation typical of the viewer's real-life expectations, it's not going to be as funny.

What the predominance of male-buffoonery on TV comedies indicates, therefore, is that society continues to view men in real life as more likely to be a respectable leader in such situations.

So I'd say the premise underlying your concerns is incorrect, Peter, and that the reverse is in fact true.

Well, I will have to revise my premise to something like: There are more jokes in media with incompetent men and competent women, than the reverse.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[umbrella]

Hi Peter!!! Long time no write to. I love jokes, and humor and comedy. We need comedy. The only thing I think about comedy is that it should be clean. Or pretty clean. Only a few comedians stand out as being not funny one was Lenny Bruce -no one liked him; and the other was Andrew Dice - sort of not funny, but less offensive. Also in keeping with the odds, if there's a lot of comedy out there, we can choose which ones to listen to. If there's only one or two state appointed comedians, then we have to choice but to laugh!

[Inquartata]

Peter, I think there're two main factors involved. One, there's a double standard in double standards. Those which favor men are bad, a priori; those which favor women are supposed to be acceptable. If you complain about it, you're a chauvinist, falling back on old oppressive attitudes, don't you know. And two, much of the worst sort of this humor---with the clueless man being rescued from his own stupidity by the long-suffering, competent woman in his life---occurs in advertisements which seek to sell something to ( surprise! ) women...flattery is a dependable marketing technique...

It does occur in programming, as well as commercials. Usually it's less egregious, often in the form of an argument between a man and a woman ( cops. lawyers, doctors, whatever ) which the woman usually "wins". Maybe it would pay to check the writer's credits when they crop up; often likely the episode is written by a woman or women.

Why do we ( society ) tolerate it, when we wouldn't if it was women getting the brunt of the insults? I think men are supposed to just to shuffle their feet, duck their heads, smile sheepishly and say nothing when it happens---unlike women, who latterly are expected to "stand up for themselves". There's some cultural overcompensation for past male attitudes and advantages going on. The pendulum always tends to swing too far, in both directions.

[achilleus]

Peter, I think there're two main factors involved. One, there's a double standard in double standards. Those which favor men are bad, a priori; those which favor women are supposed to be acceptable. If you complain about it, you're a chauvinist, falling back on old oppressive attitudes, don't you know. And two, much of the worst sort of this humor---with the clueless man being rescued from his own stupidity by the long-suffering, competent woman in his life---occurs in advertisements which seek to sell something to ( surprise! ) women...flattery is a dependable marketing technique...

It does occur in programming, as well as commercials. Usually it's less egregious, often in the form of an argument between a man and a woman ( cops. lawyers, doctors, whatever ) which the woman usually "wins". Maybe it would pay to check the writer's credits when they crop up; often likely the episode is written by a woman or women.

Why do we ( society ) tolerate it, when we wouldn't if it was women getting the brunt of the insults? I think men are supposed to just to shuffle their feet, duck their heads, smile sheepishly and say nothing when it happens---unlike women, who latterly are expected to "stand up for themselves". There's some cultural overcompensation for past male attitudes and advantages going on. The pendulum always tends to swing too far, in both directions.

The 'Feminization of America' is the phrase that is used to describe this phenomenom.

Personally, I think a large part of it is economic. For example, a movie like Basic Instinct immediately gets gays and lesbians riled up for their portayal of lesbians. Somehow, it's not possible that Sharon Stone's character is an indiviudal she has to represent the entire lesbian population. Whereas no one complains about the image 'Silence of the Lambs' gives white educated males.

When a movie, tv show, commercial, etc... show women in an unflattering light (similar to say the Home Depot ad I saw), they are immediately hit by complaints and threats of boycotts by women's groups. Andrew Dice Clay being a perfect example.

Show any minority group (religion, race, gender etc...) in a similar light, and some group steps up. These minority (for lack of better word) groups are fighting to increase their image, and are very vocal. What group is gonna call Home Depot and organize a protest over their portrayal of an adult white male? Who's gonna join such a group in the boycott?

Sure, in the US we can make fun of the French, and everyone laughs but other than that, you tell a joke, and someone is upset.

There's really no one left but men. Personally, I think the problem is not that they use men as the butt of their jokes. It's humor it's not meant to be taken seriously. The problem is that the number of times men are used as the punchline, and the lack of using others...

Personally, I think we all need to lighten up and laugh at ourselves. Minority, majority, whatever.

Oh and Inq, if you look at the bylines, both men and women use this type of humor. Look at the sitcoms...

[bmcfencer]

"Blessed are we who can laugh at ourselves, for we shall never cease to be amused".

It's all about context and audience, in my opinion.

[RITFencing]

Personally, I think we all need to lighten up and laugh at ourselves. Minority, majority, whatever.

Agreed. I'd like to see more well thought out jokes where different people suffer the brunt of the punch lines. Equality is a two way street, right? If the white, hetero protestant male can get caught doign something stupid, so can the black jewish lesbian.

At least in a perfect world. Like it was mentioned before, though, the middle class white male is one of the few remaining safe targets. People have to lighten up before this changes (which would probably help quite a few other areas of society.)

A question that comes to mind is "Why are people so sensitive to minority jokes, and why do groups of people automatically think an insult against one minority member is an attempt to stereotype them all?"

I think the answer would be insecurity.

[jeff]

As much fun as it is to point out PC silliness, I think that we should remember that it's very easy for those in the position of demographic power and safety (eg: white males, like me) to play down the effects of jokes made against those not in positions of societal power. If the shoe was on the other foot, you might not think it's so benign. A joke, say, about the aggressive proselytizing of Reverend Joe might go over well in Duluth, but not Dubai!

In general, I think people need to get a grip and not be so darned touchy, but people also need to not make humor or jokes based on making other people look dumb, or not act surprised when it creates offense - whether the target is Average White Middle Class males, or left-handed, gay, libertarian, Rastafarian, Greek-Irish-Patagonian (1/3 each), Trappist (reform) monks.

[JEC]

This is a good joke on Intelligent Design vs Evolution (FYI: Doonesbury)

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickc..._uc/db20051218

[Fencergrl]

The Homer character in the Simpsons was written by a man, and is based loosely on his father. As my nephew pointed out to me once, Homer usually has good intentions and does the right thing in the end. Yes he is a buffoon, but women have played goofy characters in the past as well as men.

George Burns was involved the Simpsons show (I believe providing funds). He was the straight man to his “dumb” Grace. Of the same era, Lucille Ball was also the goofier one of the comedy team with her husband.

Yes, men are safer targets than women when it comes to television and films. So what? Lighten up, or complain to the advertisers.