coupe

[WhipLash]

Hi everyone

juz wondering, under what circumstances do you ppl do the coupe? it seems to be slower and the movement much larger than a disengage, so i'm wondering what are its advantages?

thanks!

btw, i fence foil

[oiuyt]

Well, until multiple systems finally started failing on it last winter/spring I drove my Dodge Neon Coupe whenever I needed to travel farther than I like walking. I greatly preferred it to the Ford Taurus which I currently use for the same purpose.

What? Oh. A coupé.

It's just another way of achieving a similar goal. More options are not a bad thing. It gives a different look to your opponent, requires different responses, etc. Works beautifully to set up a flick, melds well with a flying beat, etc., etc. And in sabre tends to be significantly more effective and efficient than disengages.

-B

[Allen Evans]

Faster isn’t always the answer. Since the coupé clears the opponent’s blade over the top, rather than underneath, it gives the fencer an additional path to the opponent’s target. If a fencer only disengages on a compound attack, it doesn’t take an opponent very long to fake a parry and attempt to “cut the line”. Oooops! Suddenly the coupe scores. Now the opponent has something completely different to worry about.

When I teach the flick, I always starte by refining the fencer’s coupé. If the fencer can not make a good coupé , the chances of them making a good flick are small. From the coupé it is easy to transfer the finger action to a flick. This is even more important now, I think.

[DJ Apostrophe]

The neon died?

So sad... I thought that thing was going to last forever...

It went through a lot:

In a ditch on the pike
getting rear ended
mirror falling off

the list goes on...

-w

[oso97]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Well, until multiple systems finally started failing on it last winter/spring I drove my Dodge Neon Coupe whenever I needed to travel farther than I like walking. I greatly preferred it to the Ford Taurus which I currently use for the same purpose.

Yes, but you can cram ever so much more stuff into the trunk of a Taurus! My students call mine the "Jimmy Hoffa" trunk. Lets see for this weekend, I'll have two strip setups (favero reels and scoring boxes) in the blue traveling cases, two fencing bags, and other assorted traveling accoutraments. And still have room left over.

[Greg]

The coupe is great. It really only effective against an opponent who tends to keep their point somewhat lower than the tradition en garde six position. It is also an unexpected attack since there is that over the top whipping action that surprises novices and intermediate fencers.

[AllisonT]

As a Leftoid, the coupe' is a must-have in the arsenal to use when your opponent moves her arm across her body to over parry your feint. As said above, it's one more thing they have to worry about.

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by Greg

The coupe is great. It really only effective against an opponent who tends to keep their point somewhat lower than the tradition en garde six position. It is also an unexpected attack since there is that over the top whipping action that surprises novices and intermediate fencers.

As you say, novices and intermediates react to it... so it is also a good feint attack.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

The coupe is a tool, just like a beat, a disengage, a bind or a flick. It has its place, but is not right for every situation.

[parrythis]

When combined with a well-placed, well-executed graze, the coupé is an effective way of disengaging, then displacing your opponent's blade and clearing the path for your attack.

[WhipLash]

thanks guys. so in what situations would a coupe be most effective? i don't see it used over here very often...in fact i've never seen it at all!

[Peach]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

It's just another way of achieving a similar goal. More options are not a bad thing. It gives a different look to your opponent, requires different responses, etc. Works beautifully to set up a flick, melds well with a flying beat, etc., etc. And in sabre tends to be significantly more effective and efficient than disengages.

Although also having a disengage in the repertoire can contribute a few necessary touches in a sabre tournament, since so many well-trained sabreurs will make an automatic double-parry to sweep the coupé.

[BoutAfrica]

Originally Posted by WhipLash

thanks guys. so in what situations would a coupe be most effective? i don't see it used over here very often...in fact i've never seen it at all!

What!!? you have never seen a Coupe in foil? A coupe is probably the most reliable action in foil when performed correctly. But if performed incorrectly - wrong timing, too big movement, etc - it can encourage an attack in prep or counter attack. A good coupe should be performed with the fingers and wrist only (this is even more important on the new timing).

Ever watched marching flickers back in the good old days (Cassara and Wessels in particular)? A marching attack was often performed with a huge coupe ending in a flick to the back. The problem of bringing the arm back was part of the reason for the introduction of the new timing. People argue that bringing the arm back is not an attack. So keep your coupe tight.

I would suggest using a coupe near the begining of the bout when you dont know how your opponent is going to react.

[thepwner]

i actually teach the coupe first where the fencer takes the blade, sort a of liek a breeze the fair, but starting at teh top and going over, lieka coupe but with blade contact

[WhipLash]

Originally Posted by BoutAfrica

What!!? you have never seen a Coupe in foil? A coupe is probably the most reliable action in foil when performed correctly. But if performed incorrectly - wrong timing, too big movement, etc - it can encourage an attack in prep or counter attack. A good coupe should be performed with the fingers and wrist only (this is even more important on the new timing).

Ever watched marching flickers back in the good old days (Cassara and Wessels in particular)? A marching attack was often performed with a huge coupe ending in a flick to the back. The problem of bringing the arm back was part of the reason for the introduction of the new timing. People argue that bringing the arm back is not an attack. So keep your coupe tight.

I would suggest using a coupe near the begining of the bout when you dont know how your opponent is going to react.

sorry i should be more specific. i've never seen a coupe done in person, whether in my club or in the one competition that i watched (a rather small one). over here, the disengaged is taught first and i only heard of it from u guys and books. of course i've seen a video of the marching attack here at fencing net...

thing is...i'm wondering that since the coupe moves the tip a longer distance, doesn't it take more time to perform and subsequently, more easy to parry? as compared to a disengage where the movement is so small and done so near the guard that by the time u realise your parry has been derobed, you would have been hit.

thanks.

EDIT: the coupe is probably taught at advanced levels though.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by WhipLash

sorry i should be more specific. i've never seen a coupe done in person, whether in my club or in the one competition that i watched (a rather small one). over here, the disengaged is taught first and i only heard of it from u guys and books. of course i've seen a video of the marching attack here at fencing net...

thing is...i'm wondering that since the coupe moves the tip a longer distance, doesn't it take more time to perform and subsequently, more easy to parry? as compared to a disengage where the movement is so small and done so near the guard that by the time u realise your parry has been derobed, you would have been hit.

thanks.

EDIT: the coupe is probably taught at advanced levels though.

As far as I have seen/experienced the coupé is as common or more common than the disengage at the higher levels. It works because it can look like a preparation, inviting a counter attack so you can parry riposte. If you parry an attack with a coupé too early, or your parry is too big, you will get hit (often the case with disengages too I guess, but if someone does a coupé and you do parry 4 you might falsely assume you are safe, whereas if they disengage it is quite obvious you need to change your parry or back up). Also, if you are fencing someone smart with a fast hand their parries can be extremely difficult to predict, so an action such as counter six riposte with coupé can be very useful when executed fluidly. When I say coupé I mean no flick and to the chest in this case, with the new timing I find flicking (except on rare occasions) to be more trouble than it's worth.

Also nice are actions like the coupé disengage, I'm talking large coupé here, because if you can set up the action without getting hit in the preparation often a large coupé and a feint to the chest will result in an overly large parry which usually means one disengagement is sufficient (if you are reasonably fast) for you to accelerate to the target.

[LUDICROUS]

coupe = cutover twice then hit?

[BoutAfrica]

Originally Posted by LUDICROUS

coupe = cutover twice then hit?

No. Not in foil anway. A classical coupe is just one step, feint, disengage(coupe) and hit. You can also use it as a preparatory move to get a person to react and then follow it through with a number of coupes.

Use it against fast fencers with unpredictable parrys.

[LUDICROUS]

I'm sorry to ask this question, but the coupe disengage is a cutover?

[BoutAfrica]

Originally Posted by LUDICROUS

I'm sorry to ask this question, but the coupe disengage is a cutover?

kind of. its when the tip of the foil moves vertically to avoid a parry. The term Cut Over usually refers to Sabre I think but some people may refer to a coupe as a cut over I guess