coupe

[WhipLash]

As far as I have seen/experienced the coupé is as common or more common than the disengage at the higher levels. It works because it can look like a preparation, inviting a counter attack so you can parry riposte. If you parry an attack with a coupé too early, or your parry is too big, you will get hit (often the case with disengages too I guess, but if someone does a coupé and you do parry 4 you might falsely assume you are safe, whereas if they disengage it is quite obvious you need to change your parry or back up). Also, if you are fencing someone smart with a fast hand their parries can be extremely difficult to predict, so an action such as counter six riposte with coupé can be very useful when executed fluidly. When I say coupé I mean no flick and to the chest in this case, with the new timing I find flicking (except on rare occasions) to be more trouble than it's worth.

Also nice are actions like the coupé disengage, I'm talking large coupé here, because if you can set up the action without getting hit in the preparation often a large coupé and a feint to the chest will result in an overly large parry which usually means one disengagement is sufficient (if you are reasonably fast) for you to accelerate to the target.

ah that explains it then...i'm still in the low low low levels.
i have problems doing the feint - coupe - hit. seems like by the time i see their parry coming and start the coupe their blade would have hit mine. don't have this problem as much for disengages.

[SmokeyTheCat263]

ah that explains it then...i'm still in the low low low levels.
i have problems doing the feint - coupe - hit. seems like by the time i see their parry coming and start the coupe their blade would have hit mine. don't have this problem as much for disengages.

Whiplash - Contrary to what everyone seems to be saying on this thread, I don't think your missing out on much by not using the coupe. While BoutAfrica may have been right a year ago, the coupe doesn't strike me as an essential move at the upper echolon of foil fencing anymore. I don't see it done much at the "higher levels" in this country, and it really is somewhat risky if ur accelerating and ur point is displaced before your finish, especially on the new timings.

Occasionally, I've tried practicing coupe's in practice too, and like you, I have issues with not only getting the blade up down faster then their parry, but also with the random counterattack that seems to occur everytime my point is displaced that fast at a close distance. I guess this means i'm at the "low low low" levels with you

Some coaches teach it, some don't. Here in nyc, Mikhail and Simon don't teach it, while Buckie does. Not sure about the other foil coaches. If your coach doesn't teach it, no sweat. Life will go on...

[dramamine]

Occasionally, I've tried practicing coupe's in practice too, and like you, I have issues with not only getting the blade up down faster then their parry, but also with the random counterattack that seems to occur everytime my point is displaced that fast at a close distance. I guess this means i'm at the "low low low" levels with you

Some coaches teach it, some don't. Here in nyc, Mikhail and Simon don't teach it, while Buckie does. Not sure about the other foil coaches. If your coach doesn't teach it, no sweat. Life will go on...

It is very true that the coupé is less common these days and the answer to it's lack of use may be the inability to put the tip on in close distance outlined in this post. Before it didn't matter how big your coupé was (in fact there were actually benefits to it being larger - more torque to throw the tip on the back) because all you had to do was flick the wrist very hard in the general direction of the opponent's target and you could turn on a light. Now you actually need to choose the correct distance to use the coupé as well as pick a time during which the opponent won't be ready to attack in the period of time your tip isn't on their target so the risks are much higher.

[Link14]

I haven't used the coupe in foil much, but have had some success with it in sabre. Typically I'll pull it out of the tricks bag when I see the opponent trying to parry 4 a head cut.

[oiuyt]

You see coupés in epee too, which punishes even more severely than foil any inefficiencies at getting the tip back to target and which has a significantly higher incidence of counter-attacks... even with the new timings.

Cutover and coupé are synonymous for the most common usage of each term.

-B

[oiuyt]

I haven't used the coupe in foil much, but have had some success with it in sabre. Typically I'll pull it out of the tricks bag when I see the opponent trying to parry 4 a head cut.

Likely more often than just that. Most commonly used form in sabre is probably feint chest, coupé, hit flank.

-B

[keropie]

A coupe is changing sides of the blade by crossing the point of the opponents blade as opposed to the guard. So you can use it in all sorts of situations. I still use it in foil (course, I still flick, too...), and use in saber often. I try to avoid epee, because I'm really bad at it (too much of a foilist in me, alas...)

[Zelda]

Oh, the Singaporians use Coupes. HAving been on the receieving end more than once.

[Cerian]

ah that explains it then...i'm still in the low low low levels.
i have problems doing the feint - coupe - hit. seems like by the time i see their parry coming and start the coupe their blade would have hit mine. don't have this problem as much for disengages.

Try starting your coupe in expectation of their parry rather than in reaction to it. If you start the coupe after seeing their parry, chances are you'll just be bringing your blade into theirs. The coupe doesn't really deceive a parry in the same way a disengage does. The coupe's goal is to temporarily completely remove the blade from the picture. With a disengage, your blade is still headed straight towards their target, where it could conceivably still be hit by a parry (just hopefully not the kind of parry you're aiming to decieve). With a coupe, for a brief period your blade should be pointing up in the air nowhere near your opponents blade, where it is conceivably immune to any parry your opponent could try.

[WhipLash]

that makes sense. but then again, like smokeythecat mentioned, it's prone to the quick counterattack. currently i'm using it to change lines and hopefully to invite a counter that i can parry. is there any way to use coupe for defense?

zelda, u were at FSI? were u at the receiving end of a march-coupe? or is it the feint-coupe?

[Cerian]

that makes sense. but then again, like smokeythecat mentioned, it's prone to the quick counterattack. currently i'm using it to change lines and hopefully to invite a counter that i can parry. is there any way to use coupe for defense?

zelda, u were at FSI? were u at the receiving end of a march-coupe? or is it the feint-coupe?

If you do the coupe as one fast, fluid motion there's not much of a chance of a counterattack being in time. If you hold your arm back you can definitely be hit in prep. On defense, you can use a coupe just like a disengage on a parry riposte. Will probably delay your parry and open you up to a remise, especially with the new timings, but it still has its place.

[jspierre]

You see coupés in epee too, which punishes even more severely than foil any inefficiencies at getting the tip back to target and which has a significantly higher incidence of counter-attacks... even with the new timings.

Cutover and coupé are synonymous for the most common usage of each term.

-B

My coach even trains coupes in epee. They are taught as a preparation, which could draw a counter-attack under the hand or to the arm, especially if the coupe finishes in 4 (six to four, over the point). The compound action then proceeds with an 8 transfer that picks up the opponent's blade, takes it from low line to high line, and finishes with a thrust to the body. This is usually done from lunging distance, as the preparation with the coupe only finishes if the opponent stops to make the counter-attack. If the opponent steps back, the preparation ends. So, it's kind of a probing action that tests to see what your opponent's reaction is to the coupe.

I find this to be useful at times. In epee, you don't see it much, but the instinct to stop hit, and counter-attack is so strong, that many fencers "take the bait". At worst, I've noticed that opponents get confused about exactly what you're trying to do, and that establishes an element of control on the strip in your favor.

Like most actions, if it works, you can use it again in a bout provided you allow some time to pass so your opponent doesn't become conditioned too quickly.

[umbrella]

Hi everyone

juz wondering, under what circumstances do you ppl do the coupe? it seems to be slower and the movement much larger than a disengage, so i'm wondering what are its advantages?

thanks!

btw, i fence foil

In my opinion, the coupe should be smaller than the disengage. It's almost imperceptable, while the disengage is a larger circle. Coupe is just short and sweet, should be followed immediately with the lunge - don't hesitate just go right for the target after that.

[WhipLash]

In my opinion, the coupe should be smaller than the disengage. It's almost imperceptable, while the disengage is a larger circle. Coupe is just short and sweet, should be followed immediately with the lunge - don't hesitate just go right for the target after that.

perhaps you could explain? in a coupe my blade has to clear the top of my opp blade, but for the disengage it is usually a small semicircle under, near his guard.

[Sciurus-Rex]

The coupe' does have a proper place in fencing: It can only be used on Wednesdays after 6:30 p.m. and on Fridays from 10 a.m. to 5:45 p.m.

[Zelda]

zelda, u were at FSI? were u at the receiving end of a march-coupe? or is it the feint-coupe?

Yup, I was at FSI. And I remember getting nailed by both the march and feint coupe. IIRC Ruth Ng has a gorgeous one she does on a lunge.

[downunder]

IIRC Ruth Ng has a gorgeous one she does on a lunge.

ruth does have very nice timing. Is she still a junior? - would be good to see the singapore "posse" at u/20s this year

[WhipLash]

do tell exactly how to do a feint coupe on a lunge?