Safety Notice

**Mergs** · 08-04-2002 02:08 PM

While this was briefly touched on in the Armory Q&A topic on "Best Masks", go to <a href="http://www.clfc.org" target="_blank">Clear Lake Fencers Club</a> and click on the article "Duel" by Rod Fleming. It gives an account of a recent accident, that for the grace of God, could have been a recreation of the Smirnov accident at the Rome Olympics.

CLFC is my former club and I am proud of the way that they handled the situation. And yes, this can be a dangerous sport. Don't take your equipment lightly.

**mfp** · 08-04-2002 02:54 PM

The fact that this failed mask was examined by armourers at Nationals is fine, but does anyone know why this mask wasn't sent to a metallurgist for failure analysis?

An expert metallurgist might be able to shed some light on if the root cause of the failure were flaws in that particular mask, a defect in a process or materials that could affect entire line(s) of masks, or a case where the mask met the standard, but the standard wasn't tough enough.

[ 08-04-2002, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: mfp ]

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-04-2002 03:20 PM

The greatest epee bout I've ever fenced was against fencer "Y", the one who's mask was punctured. I can tell you first hand that fencer y is an extremely aggressive fencer. Part of launching such poweral and aggressive actions is taking a chance, especially if you are using a fairly old Negrini mask. I think that a little more personal control is necessary in a sport that although safe, still has elements of danger.

I wasn't there when it happened, but I can imagine what it looked like. Both fencers launched into each other at full speed. Did neither fencer try minimze the impact by "breaking" their wrist? One of the first things I was taught was in instances such as this, break your wrist to avoid impaling someone. Of course, I can imagine that is difficult when using an orthopedic grip. Still, it can be done. The last time I had an instance where myself and my opponent launched fleches at each other, instead of breaking my wrist, I pulled my arm back as I came in so that the amount of force I applied was greatly reduced at impact. I am sure that is something that one can do whether they fence with an orthopedic grip, or a french.

From my experience, most competitive epeeists where an FIE mask, that should be a major consideration in epee fencing. When I decided to make the transition from epee to foil, I went out and purchased the safest equipment as I knew that epee is much stiffer. Maybe it won't save me in a circumstnace one day, but at least I'll stand a chance.

**135711** · 08-04-2002 04:20 PM

hi d'art. i naturally break my wrist if i feel the impact on the other fencer is too strong, but i don't pull my arm back unless i'm going to try a different maneuver

**MikeHarm** · 08-04-2002 04:43 PM

Yeah, scary accident. You always just got that one layer of mesh between the blade and your face, and never know when one little link could have weakened along the way. I go with the FIE model myself to feel safer as well.

Even so, I trust the mesh masks more than the lexan, with the concern that if it were to go it would totally shatter apart rather than potentially catching the blade if the angle wasn't dead on like with the mesh ones.

Its too bad if they're going to eventually make us all wear them that they couldn't design the masks with two layers of the lexan so that if one shattered you'd have another layer between you and the broken blade. I'd feel a lot safer in one.

[ 08-04-2002, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: MikeHarm ]

**damianip** · 08-04-2002 06:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mfp:
The fact that this failed mask was examined by armourers at Nationals is fine, but does anyone know why this mask wasn't sent to a metallurgist for failure analysis?

An expert metallurgist might be able to shed some light on if the root cause of the failure were flaws in that particular mask, a defect in a process or materials that could affect entire line(s) of masks, or a case where the mask met the standard, but the standard wasn't tough enough.<hr /></blockquote>Having spent over a decade doing metallurgical failure analysis, I can offer the following thoughts (and they are just that: thoughts. I haven't seen this mask first hand and don't think I will).

1) The chances of determining a root cause drop exponentially with the number of people handling the mask post-incident. The fracture surfaces are damaged and contaminated.

2) Any mask, improperly cared for or illy maintained, is subject to failure.

3) Masks will wear out with repeated "repairs". i.e. re-squaring the intersections to fool the armorer, pushing out dents, etc. The repeated plastic deformation will cause weak spots to form.

4) Test all you want but if you don't test every square millimeter of the mask, it's still a statistical phenomenon. Also, testing repeatedly may weaken a marginal mask. It may fail on the next test or hard épée touch.

5) The best prevention is to buy the best mask you can (that means FIE) from a reputable manufacturer (Allstar, Uhlmann, Prieur, Negrini, etc.). Clean the sweat out of it immediately. Inspect it carefully weekly. Inspect it immediately after it takes a hard hit. Clean it and dry it regularly. Most importantly, if it looks at all worn or damaged replace it. Don't wait until the comp in two month's time for the armorer to fail it.

Think of a mask as a consumable. It's your face and life you're staking on it.

Paolo

**mfp** · 08-04-2002 06:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by damianip:
Having spent over a decade doing metallurgical failure analysis, I can offer the following thoughts (and they are just that: thoughts. I haven't seen this mask first hand and don't think I will).

1) The chances of determining a root cause drop exponentially with the number of people handling the mask post-incident. The fracture surfaces are damaged and contaminated.
<hr /></blockquote>It's certainly true that post-incident handling can contaminate and complicate things ... but after seeing how a metallurgy expert was still able to figure out the root cause of failure for a small metal component that was subsequently contaminated by being smashed and burned in the inferno of a light-airplane crash, you gain great respect for their abilities to work with even less than pristine specimens.

Wouldn't it be better to have someone look at it before writing off any hope that something can be learned from that particular mask and failure?

[ 08-04-2002, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: mfp ]

**neevel** · 08-04-2002 06:56 PM

Paolo's pointed out some of the problems with a full failure analysis. In addition, the USFA really isn't the organization who should do such testing-- SEMI (that's the FIE materials commission) is the appropriate authority to do tests for the metallurgy and manufacturing quality of the mask. Another issue is that, it doesn't look like it was an FIE Homologated mask (does any one know if it was?). The FIE sets out specifications for the steel and the thickness and weave of the mesh in order for a mask to receive FIE Homologation (they're all in the rules). If it's a non-FIE mask, though, then the design never has to be submitted for testing and approval by SEMI-- so long a it meets whatever requirements are being checked at tournaments (punch test, bib length, etc.), you may never know that it has flaws in the design or manufacturing process. The institution of the CE Level 1 standards for non-FIE fencing equipment may have changed this, but I don't know what sort of testing and inspection is being required for that (perhaps the fact that that model of mask was discontinued was related to the CE requirements coming in to force).

At any rate, the lack of a rigorous certification process for non FIE masks should serve as reason to strongly consider buying an FIE mask once you get beyond the beginner stage, especially for epee.

-Dave

**swordsen** · 08-04-2002 06:57 PM

You do realize don't you, (all of you) that the only required difference between and FIE mask and a non FIE mask is what the bib is made of? There are no different mesh requirements. It is a 12k punch for both.

**damianip** · 08-04-2002 07:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mfp:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by damianip:
Having spent over a decade doing metallurgical failure analysis, I can offer the following thoughts (and they are just that: thoughts. I haven't seen this mask first hand and don't think I will).

1) The chances of determining a root cause drop exponentially with the number of people handling the mask post-incident. The fracture surfaces are damaged and contaminated.
<hr /></blockquote>It's certainly true that post-incident handling can contaminate and complicate things ... but after seeing how a metallurgy expert was still able to figure out the root cause of failure for a small metal component that was subsequently contaminated by being smashed and burned in the inferno of a light-airplane crash, you gain great respect for their abilities to work with even less than pristine specimens.

Wouldn't it be better to have someone look at it before writing off any hope that something can be learned from that particular mask and failure?<hr /></blockquote>That's certainly true, to a degree. What the experts will tell the public and what they tell their peers isn't always the same and the degree of confidence is probably lower than one would want for a peer review.

That said, the issue is money. The type of analysis necessary costs money and since there was no permanent damage or death in this case, it's hard for someone to cough up the costs of an analysis.

I know that sounds cynical, but it's the truth.

Fencing masks are a decidedly low tech piece of equipment so you get low tech testing and QC.

Paolo

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-04-2002 07:13 PM

Add stainless steel mesh to the list as well.

Look at Neevel's post again. It sounds to me that what he is saying is that the FIE rated masks go through more rigourous testing to make sure that they will retain their strength.

Also, I had an opportunity to look at the mask a month before it was punctured, I am pretty sure that it was a non-FIE mask, Negrini.

**JEC** · 08-04-2002 07:48 PM

The Negrini mask in question was examined by Joe Byrnes. It was not a FIE mask. The thread did not look too banged or repaired. It passed the 12 kg test with an Ulhmann tester in at least 5 places near the hole.

More discussion <a href="http://www.fencing.net/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000120" target="_blank">Best Mask thread</a>

**neevel** · 08-04-2002 07:58 PM

As an addendum, the location of the FIE specs for materials and manufacture of masks, and the require tests, are in section 2 of Appendix A in the USFA Rule Book. To repeat, non-FIE masks do not have to be certified by SEMI as meeting these specifications for the mesh, and so often don't. While a mask not manufactured in accordance with the homologation specs should pass the punch test when new, the question is, how long will it continue to pass that test with use? The cheaper the mask, the shorter that time will be.

It's also important to realize that the punch test is far from a perfect test of the mesh. It's a quick & easy test that doesn't require expensive, complex equipment to carry out, which will hopefully catch the most obviously unsafe masks (particulary when used on any suspicious spots noted by visual inspection). Unless the flawed point is visible to the eye, or unless every single point in the mesh is tested, it won't necessarily be found. Furthermore, many hits (particularly with epees) will have much greater force than the 117.6 N of the punch tester. The FIE Homologation specs will ensure the resistance of the mesh is far greater than the hand-tester, whereas very cheap masks may be designed to meet just the punch test and no more.

Why is the punch test still an accepted standard if it's so imperfect? Because it's better than nothing, and anything better would likely prove cumbersome and costly enough that it wouldn't be used at all competitions. It's preferable that the punch test be employed at every little divisional tournament (where it's more likely you'll encounter really dodgy masks, anyway), than a more sophisticated test be practical only at large tournaments.

A final note: every so often, someone will sew a nominally 1600-N bib onto a cheap, non-FIE mesh and misrepresent it as a legit FIE mask (including illegally using the FIE Homolgation logo). As Summer Nationals in Austin 2 years ago, one vendor had a batch of "FIE" electric sabre masks (with a bib labelled 1600 N and the FIE badge), several examples of which failed the punch test brand new (and I mean completely failed- you couldn't find a spot on a couple where the mesh _would_ pass). These masks were from some no-name manufacturer (they had no marking on them except the false FIE ones-- not a manufacturer's name nor the vendors name). The vendor in question withdrew them from sale when shown the failed masks (though they did so by marking them as "Sold Out"), and had evidently been told they were FIE masks, although given the price they were able to offer I should think they ought to have been suspicious. At any rate, the upshot is that you're best off sticking with a major, known brand of FIE mask, rather than some lowball item that a vendor seems to have gotten a bargain on. If you really need to get a bargain price on an FIE mask, order from Fechtsport-Langenkamp.

-Dave

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-04-2002 08:42 PM

As they say, you get what you paid for. I think that there is a great deal of truth in them. I've heard others say that you are paying for the label because its popular, but how did it get popular? Probably by being very good, strong and reliable.

I've noticed that a fair number of top epeeists have Prieur masks, and for good reason.

**JEC** · 08-05-2002 07:34 AM

Part of it is National pride (French -> Prieur). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**DamedEscrime** · 08-05-2002 07:53 AM

Having seen the mask myself, I can tell you that the appearance of the mesh around the hole is sound. The mask passed puch test also. There was no evidencef rust or other weak spots,,,,so, Thank God that a freak accident was not worse than it was.

Now how about checking all those old club masks?
This one was at least 10 years old.

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-05-2002 08:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JEC:
Part of it is National pride (French -> Prieur). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>

You'd think I'd wear all Prieur since I've got 3/8's french in me and I love Dumas so much. So what do I wear? Exclusively German. However, it had more to do with the fact that the only thing Prieur you can buy in the Us is their mask, and for a ridiculous high price. Then their website never works and they didn't write me back when it did. The icing on the cake was that The Fencing Post has the best deals on FIE gear.

**Purple Fencer** · 08-05-2002 07:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by neevel:

ding illegally using the FIE Homolgation logo). As Summer Nationals in Austin 2 years ago, one vendor had a batch of "FIE" electric sabre masks (with a bib labelled 1600 N and the FIE badge), several examples of which failed the punch test brand new (and I mean completely failed- you couldn't find a spot on a couple where the mesh _would_ pass). These masks were from some no-name manufacturer (they had no marking on them except the false FIE ones-- not a manufacturer's name nor the vendors name). The vendor in question withdrew them from sale when shown the failed masks (though they did so by marking them as "Sold Out"), and had evidently been told they were FIE masks, although given the price they were able to offer I should think they ought to have been suspicious. At any rate, the upshot is that you're best off sticking with a major, known brand of FIE mask, rather than some lowball item that a vendor seems to have gotten a bargain on. If you really need to get a bargain price on an FIE mask, order from Fechtsport-Langenkamp.

-Dave<hr /></blockquote>OK...just for the record -- that is something H.O.M. Fencing will NEVER do! I will NOT knowingly sell any equipment not legal for competition and I most certainly would NOT falsify FIE gear...if I ever make my own stuff, it WILL be submitted to the FIE for approval.

Dave...could you PM me with the name of that vendor so I can stay away from him?

**veeco** · 08-05-2002 08:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JEC:
Part of it is National pride (French -> Prieur). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>

You'd think I'd wear all Prieur since I've got 3/8's french in me and I love Dumas so much. So what do I wear? Exclusively German. However, it had more to do with the fact that the only thing Prieur you can buy in the Us is their mask, and for a ridiculous high price. Then their website never works and they didn't write me back when it did. The icing on the cake was that The Fencing Post has the best deals on FIE gear.<hr /></blockquote>3/8th... It's not even 1/2. How can you pretend to be French if you're not even 1/2 French? For all that matters, you might as well be 5/8th German, which would explain your fetichism towards Allstar and Uhlmann.

On a related note, a lot of people in the Midwest actually have French ancestors without knowing it, I heard. There was a time where the whole Midwest was a part of French colonies, and even though France lost them, the original settlers stayed there and perpetrated many generations of 3/8th French people <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**Purple Fencer** · 08-05-2002 09:20 PM

Veeco,

Remember, it wasn't all that long agpo that , in the Deep South (Louisiana, I think), if you had a fraction of "black blood" in your heritage -- even as small as 1/32nd - you were considered "black", even if you were really ghost white.

Stupid, really. Of course, if P.W. Botha moved to the U.S. and became naturalized, he could legitimately called himself "African-American". For that matter, so could Hosni Mubarak or even Col. Khadaffi!

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