Rules Questions

[jBirch]

Three questions that I just can't seem to find explicitly in the 2000 rules:

1) Obscenities. I know there is a penalty for swearing on the piste, I just can't find the specific rule to cite.

2) Mask designs. One of my fencers has put a design on their mask. Where do I find the rules for that design?

3) Coaching. Are you allowed to coach from the sidelines? If not, what differentiates coaching from encouragement?

Thanks.

James.

[DHCJr]

I can give you a quick answer on 2. The Answer is in Appendix A, Section 2.1.3. on the making of masks. In the U.S. this also applies to non-FIE masks. See the note after M.25.

After checking the rulebook T.82 and T.83 can give you the other answers.

T.83 does mention language and I would think the difference in coaching and encouragement can be in 'no one is allowed to go near the strips or to give ADVICE to the fencer.'

[oso97]

Quick answer to 1 is disturbing order on strip.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Three questions that I just can't seem to find explicitly in the 2000 rules:

1) Obscenities. I know there is a penalty for swearing on the piste, I just can't find the specific rule to cite.

You can use either offense against sportsmanship or disruption of order on the strip. Both of those are fairly serious. You can also tell the fencer that you don't want to hear any more swearing, and if they do it again, failure to obey the referee, which isn't as bad.

Originally Posted by jBirch

2) Mask designs. One of my fencers has put a design on their mask. Where do I find the rules for that design?

See DHC's post.

Originally Posted by jBirch

3) Coaching. Are you allowed to coach from the sidelines? If not, what differentiates coaching from encouragement?

Thanks.

James.

If, as a ref, you feel that the coaching is getting to be too much, you can hit them with disruption of order on the strip.

Many of the rules for reffing are pretty subjective, which you can (and should) use to your advantage if people become unruly. If they complain that they were not really disturbing order/committing an offence against sportsmanship/whatever, rule t.122 clearly states:

No appeal can be made against the decision of the Referee regarding
a point of fact.

If you said it, it happened. Of course, in smaller local events, at club, or whatever, it's generally better to appeal to someone's common sense, especially if you know that person to normally be sensible.

[RITFencing]

As far as how much coaching is too much, or the difference between coaching and enthusiastic support, use your judgement and remember rule t.122. It's one of the most powerful tools a ref has.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I can give you a quick answer on 2. The Answer is in Appendix A, Section 2.1.3. on the making of masks. In the U.S. this also applies to non-FIE masks. See the note after M.25.

After checking the rulebook T.82 and T.83 can give you the other answers.

T.83 does mention language and I would think the difference in coaching and encouragement can be in 'no one is allowed to go near the strips or to give ADVICE to the fencer.'

Thanks. That pretty much does it.

1) Red Card - disturbing order on the strip.
2) Appendix.
3) Warning, Expulsion - not on strip disturbing order.

James.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Thanks. That pretty much does it.

1) Red Card - disturbing order on the strip.
2) Appendix.
3) Warning, Expulsion - not on strip disturbing order.

James.

actually these days a yellow card is shown for the warning... just being pedantic here.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by downunder

actually these days a yellow card is shown for the warning... just being pedantic here.

Only for the disturbing order OFF strip offense. If its ON strip (like the above swearing example) its a red card.

[bigdawg2121]

Actually fellas...I think there may have been some ammendments that aren't necessarily in the rules...As far as one goes, follow the above advice...as far as coaching goes, it's not particularlythe coaching in and of itself that's illegal as long as they don't disturb order or (in the case of NACs) leave their box. As for the whole design on masks thing, did the FIE make it legal for fencers to have designs as long as they were submitted and approved in an effort to make things more telegenic...I know it's a rare occurence either way, but I thought I heard about that happening at least for international events....?

[downunder]

Originally Posted by oso97

Only for the disturbing order OFF strip offense. If its ON strip (like the above swearing example) its a red card.

ah many apologies, my fault for glossing over it

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

As for the whole design on masks thing, did the FIE make it legal for fencers to have designs as long as they were submitted and approved in an effort to make things more telegenic...I know it's a rare occurence either way, but I thought I heard about that happening at least for international events....?

Right, it's legal if pre-approved by the FIE.

Follow-up question: How many designs have been so approved?

Follow-up answer: Zero, nada, zip, zilch, none.

Follow-up question: So doesn't that just equal out to a ban under a different name?

Follow-up answer: Cheshire Cat grin

-B

[DJ Apostrophe]

Follow-up question: How many designs have been submitted for approval, and subsequently denied?

-w

[rory]

Answer to follow-up question: at least one such mask has been approved by the FIE. Laurence Halsted of GBR has a mask upon which is a Spider-Man face: this has been passed.

If he hadn't then put it on a mask with a black bib, he'd have been fine - it failed at the Leon Paul Cup Satellite last weekend ("on the body, colours must be white or a light shade" or something to that effect - ie not black!...)

[jBirch]

Follow-up Q: How do the rules on mask colouring transfer to the new lexan masks? Can you tint them or mirror them? Put a transparent design on them?

James.

[edew]

Regarding #3, one way to determine whether comments are coaching or enthusiastic support is whether the comment's logical alternatives would make tactical sense.

For example, if someone yells, "Circle-six!" alternatives could be "parry-four," or "counter-attack," or any number of options. And they all could make tactical sense. That means it's coaching.

If someone yells, "Hit on-target!" with an alternative presumably being hitting off-target, that would not make tactical sense. Hence, it would be just an exasperated comment of a spectator.

As part of improving local competitions for the Bay Cup I had written up guidelines for the referees to evaluate whether there's too much strip-side coaching and how to deal with it. (The Bay Cup has been getting a bit too uber-competitive in terms of strip-side coaching.) One way to evaluate whether comments are spectatorish versus coaching would be to apply the alternative options tactics test as suggested above.

(Of course, it is wholly possible that the coaches and fencers have devised codes so that, "go, go, go!" would mean parry-six and "good job!" would mean parry-four or some other sort of arrangement. My experience is that most kids don't even remember their own names when they're fencing, much less remember any cooked up codes. So there's hardly any fear that such coded arrangements have been devised.)

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by oso97

Quick answer to 1 is disturbing order on strip.

I suppose you could go that route, but the one I know of is offense against the publicity code.

-m

[TrojanMD]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Follow-up Q: How do the rules on mask colouring transfer to the new lexan masks? Can you tint them or mirror them? Put a transparent design on them?

James.

You must be able to do so, as one of the GBR Women's Sabrists has an eye hologram on her mask. And it passed muster at the Vegas World Cup back in June. (unless, of course, the armorers just didn't see it...)

[needle]

Originally Posted by edew

(Of course, it is wholly possible that the coaches and fencers have devised codes so that, "go, go, go!" would mean parry-six and "good job!" would mean parry-four or some other sort of arrangement. My experience is that most kids don't even remember their own names when they're fencing, much less remember any cooked up codes. So there's hardly any fear that such coded arrangements have been devised.)

I've seen coaches use had signals to suggest actions to their fencers (more effective than codes and you don't know that your opponent is getting coaching, because his coach is standing behind you and you don't hear any yells). And yes, that was at Bay Cup this year.