Do you prefer refereeing one weapon over others?

[KD5MDK]

Ok, since beginning this thread I've done almost a full tournament of decent level refereeing (A pool each of ME, MF, WE and WS, as well as ME and WS DEs). My conclusions (other than WS fencers ought to be more observant and when 3 yellow cards have been handed out for hair on the lame, you ought to ask if yours is compliant):

1) Epee is still not automatic, I'd say I only keep the losing fencer under observation 80% of the time or so. I blink, although I do my best to time it so it happens when the fencers have gone apart for a second or something. So I need a lot of practice, but I actually enjoy it. (I'm probably thinking good epee directing will pay for my sabre habit, which is optimistic, but encouraging)

2) Foil combines the attentiveness of epee with the complications (ROW) of sabre, and so is the least fun.

3) I was surprised when I started my WS pool how much more relaxed I felt, as if I was back in my natural element. I suppose I'll have to skip competing in a few tournaments so I can ref a mixed or men's event and see how I do at a higher level.

In everything, I need enough practice to look and sound bored and accustomed to everything that goes on, but that will simply take time.

[SJB]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!



Why this preference for men´s fencing?

And why the differing weapon order within the genders?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

This is going to light a fire of sorts but here is my explanation:

In terms of Women's Foil it is, as was already said, two categories.

I cannot count the number of times I've presided WF's at a tournament and said one of the following (or all three as was the case with all five of the WF's DE bouts I judged including the final)

1) Attack together.

2. Attack/Parry-Reposte/Remise (either the parry or the remise hits)

3. Attack is parried. Reposte is no. Remise is no. Remise of the parry is no. Second remise of the attack is no. Second remise of the reposte is no. Third remise of the attack is no. Third remise of the parry is non-valid.

Plus, I find a lot (note not *all) of Women's foil to very very ugly technically versus men's foil. More unorthodox body movements and the like.

Simply put, the best Women's foilists are the ones who know how to put the point on. But those are hard to find.

Women's Epee is an exercise in inactivity and usually puts me to sleep.

Women's Sabre is usually a little faster paced then WF. And thankfully there is a greater target area so fewer non-valid hits result.

In terms of Men's weapons I am a foilist by trade but fence and respect all three weapons.

Foil I feel I am more in my element then others. Plus I appreciate the practice I get in terms of ROW calls.

Sabre is much the same as foil.

Men's Epee usually takes the longest amount of time but compensates in it's intensity. At the early levels Epee is easy to preside but at the higher levels is more challenging then most people think.

The main reason I rank the weapons in the order I do is that I approach refeering as a judge, a fencer and a spectator.

I would much rather preside over a bout that will interest me and make me remember why I continue fencing.

Versus judging women's foil which I always assume is some kind of karmic punishment.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by SJB

3. Attack is parried. Reposte is no. Remise is no. Remise of the parry is no. Second remise of the attack is no. Second remise of the reposte is no. Third remise of the attack is no. Third remise of the parry is non-valid.

You're doing way too much work there. Call the last phrase or two and let it go at that. Spare yourself! No one needs to have every action from "fence" to "halt" parsed, especially in foil...

[SJB]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

You're doing way too much work there. Call the last phrase or two and let it go at that. Spare yourself! No one needs to have every action from "fence" to "halt" parsed, especially in foil...

I call every action to remind the fencers (and their coaches if in earshot) just how *bad* they really are.

Cruel I know.

But not nearly as cruel as having to referee their bouts .

[Inquartata]

I'll bet that your pool is always the last one to finish.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by SJB

I call every action to remind the fencers (and their coaches if in earshot) just how *bad* they really are.

Cruel I know.

But not nearly as cruel as having to referee their bouts .

I have to referee their bouts. I do not have to be a masochist about it.

[remise]

I don't mind reffing any weapon.

I started out fencing epee, then learned foil and sabre after 2 years of being established as an epee fencer. It was hard learning ROW, and to my coach's credit, he had me ref the other two weapons as often as possible. Now, 3 years later, I don't mind reffing any of them, as I enjoy fencing them all.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I can ref any of them, but being a sabre fencer, I'm more comfortable reffing sabre, and I'm just better at it. I actually enjoy reffing sabre, I got rated in epee as well so that it would be easier to get hired for events, and although I can ref foil decently, I declined to take the practical because I just don't like reffing foil.

[Morion]

I am a terrible Ref!!!! I vote for Epee because it is the easiest to do correctly!

[KD5MDK]

Those two statements do not overlap. A good referee should have no problem reffing epee correctly. All you need to do is know the rules perfectly and always pay close attention. These are pretty much by definition not things a terrible Ref can do...

[Morion]

I was referring more to not having to determine right of way or correct target in Epee. All you really have to do when they are fencing electric as make sure there are no floor touches. Light goes on, fencer gets touch. Two lights go on, both fencers get a touch. Sooooo much easier to judge!

[KD5MDK]

Did the action start before he stepped off strip? Was he off strip with one or two feet when the touch landed?

[forethought]

Originally Posted by Anhierd

The attack in foil also ends in foil when the foot hits the ground. Front foot for a lunge. Either foot for a fleche (but if properly executed the rear foot that crossed over the front durnign the execution of the fleche). This was the same when sabre included the fleche. In the foil rules this isn't stated explicitly like it is t.75 b-1, but it is supposed to be implied from the fact that when the correct foot lands the attack (lunge or fleche) is over.

I'm curious as to what your basis for this notion that in foil the attack ends when the front foot lands. Please, elaborate in as much detail as you'd like, because I completely disagree, but would like to hear your argument before I explain why.

[damianip]

For those who think that epee is easy, I offer the following scenario which has happened to me when directing in slightly varying forms many times and, specifically, last week:

Of course it's crowded and noisy, fencers and parents are constantly congregating at the end of the strips.

One fencer is a lefty, the other is a righty. As usual, they are hugging the far edge of the strip. The lefty pushes the righty into the 2M area. They are both still hugging the edge of the strip. The righty now has one foot off the end of the strip. He's holding his weapon in a low guard.

The lefty initiates a preparatory attack to the hand of the righty. All at once (or it seems), he drops to the foot, the righty reassembles and attempts a counter to the arm of the lefty.

We hear almost simultaneously: the bang on the guard, the buzzer and a sound of the floor being hit. Two lights.

At the conclusion of the action, it appears that the attacker has one foot off the side of the strip, the defender has both feet off the end and one beyond the plane of the far edge.

What could have happened here? Here are some possibilities:

Attacker hit a piece of the defender's guard as well as the hand or the weapon plug, defender hits the floor. Touch left.

Attacker hit a piece of the defender's guard as well as the hand or the weapon plug, defender hits the attackers hand. Double touch.

Attacker hit the defender's foot and then the floor as he withdrew the weapon, defender hits the attacker's hand. Double touch

Attacker hit the defender's foot and then the floor as he withdrew the weapon, defender hits the floor. Touch left.

Attacker hit the floor and then defender's foot as he slid the weapon, defender hits the attacker's hand. Touch right.

Attacker hit the floor and then defender's foot as he slid the weapon, defender hits the floor. No touch.

Both hit the floor. No touch.

The attacker hit the defender's guard which wasn't grounded properly, defender hit the attacker's hand or the floor. Weapon's test. Intermittent recreation of the error (should annul the attacker's touch).

Now at the feet we have:

Attacker stepped off the strip before he initiated the action. His touch is annulled.

Defender stepped of the end of the strip during his reassemblement during the action. Touch left.

Defender broke the plane of the far edge of the strip during the action. Halt is called, attacker gains a meter, when they are put on guard, he is off the strip, touch left.

Now add to this any permutation of the timing of hits, invalid hits and footwork, and I think you see where I'm going. It sometimes appear to happen all at once, even though it could not have.

The point is that although there are tough calls to make in any weapon. epeeists don't like to have their touches annulled as it doesn't happen as frequently as the other weapons. A sabre or foil fencer is used to getting euphemistically screwed.

When an anullment is called in epee, it usually involves the feet, particularly on an ungrounded strip. Unfortunately, only the ref (if he/she is good) is watching the feet. No one else was watching, but they all have opinions.

Paolo

[chiz]

I can ref foil but I prefer epee. As I don’t fence saber I only direct at the club and only because I can see and call the action, someone else has to interpret the rules of the game.

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Only an epeeist can properly referee epee...

PS - If you don't prefer refereeing epee, then I would prefer that you refrain from doing so.

Epee is by far my preference. And when fencing epee I had rather have my opponent and I direct ourselves than have an unaware, unknowledgeable bumpkin making bad call from the sideline.

chiz

[chiz]

Originally Posted by Poulet

You have too much faith in the honesty of your opponents.

No, I can argue with an opponent and I do know the rules. I cannot argue as effectively with a bumpkin who gives cards.

Chiz

[RebelFencer]

That assumes that the referee will stick to the original story once the bout committee is brought in. Because if it become your word against their's, there really isn't much that can be done other than having them observed.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

That assumes that the referee will stick to the original story once the bout committee is brought in. Because if it become your word against their's, there really isn't much that can be done other than having them observed.

On the other hand, a referee that changes their calls after they've been made will get a reputation as a poor referee -- sure, you're screwed at that one point, but the referee's reputation is besmirched in the long run.

[chiz]

Originally Posted by Poulet

Yup. Having referees who are good is a plus. Having referees who are bad is like hell. It's a gamble, but definitely better than the anarchy of having the on-strip fencers fighting for each touch through fencer then debate. At least [almost all] referees are impartial, more or less.

By the time the delays have run their course, the original action/actions have been forgotten and the problems become personal not fencing actions, my legs are starting to cool off and the down hill slide starts.

Would the USFA allowed a tournament to be sanctioned where the fencers directed themselves on strip? Possibly not. The point I am making is poor refs are the bane of the sport, poor epee refs in particular. From my observations, young mid to low ranked foil fencers make the worst epee refs, followed by the blind and extremely myopic. Older mid to low ranked epee fencers make the worst foil and saber refs, followed by the beer moll.

Home cooking is a mater for another thread.

chiz

[Justin-Hotpink]

i like reffin epee more because it is sooo much easier, and you dont have to think, and that i sjust so much better for me, i am sooooo braindead