Role of Women's colleges

[oso97]

As inspired by the "dating club members" thread...

What do you see as the primary benefit of a women's-only higher education institution? Is there something that makes it a better match for a woman than a mixed gender insitution of similar caliber and socio-economic makeup of students in today's educational enviornment? Do such institutions contribute more to a perception of "different and inferior" or do they help promote "equal but different" roles/perceptions/modes of thought/etc for men and women in today's society?

Lets try to keep the mudslinging and PC tiptoeing to a minimum, shall we?

[sabregrrrl]

This could perhaps be likened to having separate men's and women's events at fencing tournaments.....

[RITFencing]

On a related topic, are there many men only colleges/unis in the US, and how many of them offer doctorate programs?

[Fencing Jesus]

Two Texians discussing education, fabulous.

[RebelFencer]

Jesus Christ!

[oso97]

Hrmmm... I think its a bit different from the subject of Mixed vs segregated events at fencing competitions!

[bmcfencer]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Jesus Christ!

on a bicycle.

Women's Colleges... hmmmm..... Well, as someone who is attending a Women's College (which was, by the way, my first choice), this is a question I haven't been asked nearly as much as I expected. Usually my guy friends say they wish they went here (ha ha) and my female friends (who don't also go to women's colleges) look somewhat frightened and say they could never go to an all female school. Well, okay, my straight female friends who don't go to women's schools say that.

So, the benefits that I see.... well, it's cleaner and smells better than any co-ed school I've ever visited- women's colleges also tend to have nicer dorms and better food (I thank Virginia Wolfe. Oh how I love her). Stuff doesn't get broken, I feel safer, and I can say the word "tampon" without anyone in sight cringing. I also feel like the community is more supportive and friendlier, the traditions Bryn Mawr has could never happen at a co-ed school, and women feel less intimidated about speaking up in the classroom. Not that I personally have ever had a problem speaking up in the classroom, but it does seem to be a trend that guys talk more than girls in co-ed classrooms. Also I feel less pressured to look attractive and more appreciated when I put effort into how I look and dress.

I'm in an all-female Shakespeare Troupe too, and I find that I don't think co-ed shakespeare performances are as funny or moving anymore because people are cast according to their gender rather than pure acting potential. Well, and some of the people who act here are just knock-your-socks-off amazing actors (not me so much, but I'm getting better).

Women's colleges also seem more likely to have Honor Codes that actually work, which means most of my exams are self-scheduled or take-home and if I lose stuff or forget it places people will return it to me.

I can wander around in a bra and nobody cares.

Hmmm. I'm not sure how much the other stuff I love about Bryn Mawr is Bryn Mawr specific or even specific to my own experiences here, so I'll leave it out for now. But anyway, I'm glad I go here and while I occasionally wonder what my collegic experience would be like if I lived with guys, I wouldn't trade Bryn Mawr for anything. Being queer doesn't have anything to do with this liking of the women's college, though Bryn Mawr helped me a lot in the coming out of the closet process.

Ah, and a couple of tee-shirt slogans

Bryn Mawr College: Better Dead than Co-ed

(we're pretty sure we'll be the last all-female institute of higher learning left standing)

and....

It's not a girl's school with no men, it's a women's college with no boys.

[schlager7]

Originally Posted by Fencing Jesus

Two Texians discussing education, fabulous.

A lot of Texans, living and dead, could have given us good conversations on different aspects of education. Of course, it depends on the type of education they are talking about.

Perhaps a literary discussion between Katherine Ann Porter, J. Frank Dobie Larry McMurtry, Terry Southern and Gene Roddenberry?

In a music composition course, Danny Elfman might have an opinion worth noting.

How about a journalism course with speakers Sam Donaldson, Linda Ellerbee, Dan Rather, Walter Cronkite and Molly Ivins? (Makes you wonder why all Texans are thought of as conservative...)

Perhaps a pre-med course under Dr. Denton Cooley?

Pre-law under Sandra Day O'Connor?

I would have loved a chance to take civics from someone like Barbara Jordan.

The drama course could have workshops led by Joan Crawford, Debbie Allen, Larry Hagman, Powers Boothe, Gary Busey, Brent Spiner, Fobert Foxworth, Sandy Duncan, Tommy Lee Jones, Rene Zellweger and Mary Martin.

King Vidor could cover early film history.

A film class in animation could include discussions led by Frederick Bean "Tex" Avery.

Aaron Spelling could cover television production.

How about an art class with Robert Rauschenberg?

The military studies program discussion could be led by Chester Nimitz with tactical discussion led by Audie Murphy.

How about A. J. Foyt for driver's ed?

I'd love to listen to Texans Alvin Ailey and Cyd Charisse discuss dance programs for the schools. Tommy Tune could also add his two cents.

I could also mention Oveta Culp Hobby - 1st Secretary of the Department of Health, Education and Welfare (also 1st commanding officer of the WAC and editor of the Houston Post).

[KD5MDK]

There are no all-male higher education institutions that I know of, as VMI and The Citadel were both integrated recently I believe. What effect that has I do not know.

the traditions Bryn Mawr has could never happen at a co-ed school

do you mean the particular traditions, or just traditions in general? Because the Service Academies, and Texas A&M (which resembles them somewhat) have a tradition it seems that anything done twice is a tradition.

[swordwench]

Hmmmmm... I can't say I'm a fan of women's colleges, though I was a Seven Sisters grad. As expected, very high percentage of gay/bi/undecided. We had about 60/40 ratio, women to men, though most people still think the place is all female. Hellooooo - it went co-ed in 1969!

What I found there was a campus of very strong women, and men who were not intimidated by them. I never saw any of the crap many women report at testosterone-worshipping schools, where the females sit quietly in a corner while the males dominate discussion. Maybe it's just the nature of the place, that it attracted men who accepted women as equals. The women did most of the talking and arguing. I did manage to find a women's studies professor who hated every fiber of my being because I defended my mother's and sisters' decision to be stay-at-home moms and wives. (I still defend their choice, even if it's not my own.)

All of the men I knew smelled fine. A lot of the women did NOT, like my freshman roommate. With co-ed bathrooms and showers, you tend to notice these things. Oh, and I walked around in a bra talking about tampons as much as I wanted to.

Personally, I didn't feel that I needed to attend a school that banned half of the population. I don't shrink from competition. But then again, I'm outspoken, though I recognize that not all women are. To each his own. But women, beware: once you get out into the real world, that well-padded cocoon you lived in for 4 years is going to be ripped open and it's not always pretty out here. I hope you're ready for it!

[MyrddinsPrecint]

i went to an all girls school for fifth and sixth grade-- and kids that age are EVIL- so i was miserable. and i swore i would never again choose an all women environment....... and then i grew up.


all girls elementary schools or high schools are populated by girls whose parents didn't want them to be around boys, for whatever reason. so the girls get vicious. and it's a generally horrible environment. it also makes it very difficult for the girls who have been in an all girls environment from K-12 to deal appropriately with guys. especially if their only real interaction with guys is their little brothers. not that there aren't ways to get around it, not that there aren't people who have been fine..... but it's more difficult.

for, me, the choice to go to smith wasn't about the absence of guys--- the choice to go to smith was about the presence of the specific kinds of women here. i graduated high school in a graduating class that was well known for cheerleaders, quiet meek hard working girls, girls who were more worried about their boyfriends than their homework, girls who rolled up their skirts, girls who would rather argue with their english teachers about whether their shirt had been tucked in than the amount of literature by women we read.

for the most part, i don't like those girls. at smith, the kinds of women here are much more like me-- we care about our work, we want to be learning, we want to be challenged, we want to be respected because we're smart. we can be silly and odd and whatever, and watch disney movies with each other on friday nights, or we can be discussing what the definition of a word is over dinner.

i applied to a variety of places, both co-ed and women's schools, and i visited a great number of them. the only place where i felt at home, felt like i was surrounded by people like me, was smith.

and the lack of guys was, for me, a secondary thing. i never cared about speaking up in class, or whether i looked pretty that day in high school. but the guys who went out of their way to insult me, belittle me, and generally despise me because i didn't take the role they thought i should was annoying. if i understood a concept better than a few guys in some of my AP classes (especially math), some of the guys were really quite *******-ish about it. to the extent where i was harassed and physically threatened on a couple of occations.

i can concentrate perfectly well in a co-ed environment. how long it takes me to get dressed doesn't change. how i act in class doesn't change. what is different is the amount of BS i put up with as a result.

oh, sure, i do/think all the typical pseudo-men-hating things--- i enjoy the fact that i can walk around my house in a bra, that there's less vomit on campus, i love my honor code, i love our traditions, i love going to convocation mostly naked, etc etc etc..... oh, and the amount i shave my legs is now socially acceptable (no more than once a week during the winter when no one SEES my legs).


and i haven't had to give up contact with guys-- i swear, the people in my dorm that don't know me must think i get so much action..... between my coach or assistant coach dropping me off or dropping by after or before certain things, my best friend visiting... oh, and, y'know, my boyfriend... and i usually get to UMass at least once a fortnight.... or, at least, i try.


yeah, i love it here......

[Peach]

I went to an all-girl school for middle school and high school. It was a strong academic school with high standards, and though I was miserable there I would have been miserable anywhere, because I was a year and a half younger than my classmates, severely ADHD, massively disorganized, socially awkward, and coping with the disintegration of my parents' marriage. I learned there that I had just as much right to an opinion as anyone else, and that I couldn't use the excuse of my sex to avoid trying to succeed.

I went to a women's college for two years, but it wasn't really single-sex--Barnard is pretty closely enmeshed with Columbia. I didn't care for it (it was where my parents thought I should go) and I really didn't care for single-sex education at that point. I left after two years to go to art school, which was DEFinitely not single-sex. I think you might call it polyeducational rather than coeducational.

I think there's a lot to be said for a single-sex environment somewhere in a person's education. I sent my kid to the same school I attended, but only for high school.

I teach in a boys' school, and it's not a bad idea for boys, either. The only thing I really don't like about it is that the high school boys end up with the impression that they are smarter than girls because they don't have girls in their classes to disspell the impression, and that can make them tiresomely arrogant.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by bmcfencer

It's not a girl's school with no men, it's a women's college with no boys.

Heh, says the chick from Bryn...


That picking the right college for any person is difficult at best. For me, I felt that college was a time to broaden my horizons, and get one step closer to the real world. Sure, the first year was nothing but a fantasy in some ways, but it was much closer to the reality, than living in at home with mom and dad.

I went to a co-ed school, with co-ed bathrooms, and girls did whatever they wanted and no one said a word. It was located close to a large city, and I can tell you I learned more outside of class than I ever did in class.

That said, that's what I was looking for. Not everyone is really ready to venture forth from the cocoon and be open to new experiences. And unfortuntely, people like this guy still exist in places of authority. While I understand it's an attempt to allow women to to learn without worrying about bias, and dealing with cretins like the above, it just seems like a way to delay the real world even longer, and perpetuate the 'boys are icky' stereotype that BMC Fencer espouses in the line quoted above.

All in all, I feel that women's colleges are doing a disservice to education, but I guess they do have a place for those not quite ready to leave the cocoon (as Swordwench called it...)

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by achilleus

All in all, I feel that women's colleges are doing a disservice to education, but I guess they do have a place for those not quite ready to leave the cocoon (as Swordwench called it...)

here at smith, we do call what we live in the "smith bubble"...... but i don't feel that it's more of a cocoon than any other small liberal arts school that has enough money and people to care about their students. Hampshire, a co-ed school that's a 20 minute public bus ride away is MORE in a bubble than smith..... it's not just because we're single sex.

[bmcfencer]

Originally Posted by swordwench

Hmmmmm... I can't say I'm a fan of women's colleges, though I was a Seven Sisters grad. As expected, very high percentage of gay/bi/undecided. We had about 60/40 ratio, women to men, though most people still think the place is all female. Hellooooo - it went co-ed in 1969!

What I found there was a campus of very strong women, and men who were not intimidated by them. I never saw any of the crap many women report at testosterone-worshipping schools, where the females sit quietly in a corner while the males dominate discussion. Maybe it's just the nature of the place, that it attracted men who accepted women as equals. The women did most of the talking and arguing. I did manage to find a women's studies professor who hated every fiber of my being because I defended my mother's and sisters' decision to be stay-at-home moms and wives. (I still defend their choice, even if it's not my own.)

All of the men I knew smelled fine. A lot of the women did NOT, like my freshman roommate. With co-ed bathrooms and showers, you tend to notice these things. Oh, and I walked around in a bra talking about tampons as much as I wanted to.

Personally, I didn't feel that I needed to attend a school that banned half of the population. I don't shrink from competition. But then again, I'm outspoken, though I recognize that not all women are. To each his own. But women, beware: once you get out into the real world, that well-padded cocoon you lived in for 4 years is going to be ripped open and it's not always pretty out here. I hope you're ready for it!

Okay, first off... Yay MP (it won't let me rep you)!! You said a lot of what I should have in my first post, and said it better than I could have...

I am not anti-man.. Heck, a lot of my closest friends are guys, and I have guy friends at Swarthmore and Haverford... and it's not that I can't walk around in a bra and talk about tampons outside of the "Bryn Mawr bubble" its that here my gender just never really feels like a part of the equation of how I live my life (I always thought it was stupid that men could walk around with their shirts off and I wasn't supposed to). I also know guys who smell good, and girls who stink- but I still hold that for whatever reason my college smells better. Also I think women do behave differently, whatever their sexual orientation, when there are men around.

As for the idea that I won't be able to deal with men after living in this "cocoon" for 4 years. He hehehehehehehe. sorry. Just... really funny. There are men here, you know (they just don't LIVE here), and I don't know anyone here who has a man-free existance. A lot of our professors are still men, after all, and most people don't spend all of their lives on campus. Also we take classes at Haverford and Swarthmore- I may even major at Haverford (that's right, the historically male college) Most people are out in the "real world" doing internships and holding jobs and being a part of the co-ed world (even the competitive co-ed world!). Just because I'm growing and learning and living in this supportive caring place doesn't mean I won't be able to cope without it- it just means that I've gotten the advantages of living in a place full of strong/creative/empathic/zany women who don't have to assert their femininity or feminism all the time.

That's the other thing- Bryn Mawr is the first place where I've really felt like I don't have to be a strong feminist woman asserting her strong feminist stance all the time. I haven't given that up, I just never have have to bring it up. I actually wear pink now- something I would never have done in high school because it's "girly" and people would have considered me hypocritical. My magnet high school was pretty accepting, but I still always felt that I was proving something. Here I'm just accepted for who I am- and it's taken for granted that I'm a feminist and a leader and an activist and a nerd (okay, and a queer). The women here see ME instead of my labels.

I too looked at a lot of schools - and Bryn Mawr was the place where I felt completely at home. For me this place is magical, and the women here never cease to amaze me.

The traditions are specific bryn mawr traditions designed to make frosh part of the community and to keep us all from going mad. Some of them are actually secret, which I think is kinda cool. But then, I'm the dork who memorized semaphore in elementary school.

A disservice to education, eh? Whoa, I wish you could sit in on some of our classes... I work much harder here than I would have at any of the co-ed schools I applied to, and I think I would actually be a little bored at any of them now.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

and the lack of guys was, for me, a secondary thing. i never cared about speaking up in class, or whether i looked pretty that day in high school. but the guys who went out of their way to insult me, belittle me, and generally despise me because i didn't take the role they thought i should was annoying. if i understood a concept better than a few guys in some of my AP classes (especially math), some of the guys were really quite *******-ish about it. to the extent where i was harassed and physically threatened on a couple of occations.

I knew many guys like the ones you describe (and girls like the ones you described as well) in high school. Standard NJ public school system in some ways, I guess. However, when I got to my coed college (which is a msotly male tech school) that changed. The people who weren't serious about their studies, male or female, dropped out fairly quickly.

My point is that you can't really judge the coed college experience by the coed high school experience. They are COMPLETELY different.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by bmcfencer

Here I'm just accepted for who I am- and it's taken for granted that I'm a feminist and a leader and an activist and a nerd (okay, and a queer). The women here see ME instead of my labels.

You know, I'll just make one quick point, as my time is limited...

I went to a large public school, and I can tell you some people judged me, some people withheld judgement, and most looked past labels and saw me for ME. It's not an experience unique to women's school.