Illegal Slashwork? (from a Sabre Rookie)

[LesTash]

Hello Forum,

I was wondering how unorthodoxed one can be in when in comes to sabre slashing and is anything outlawed?

I'm aware of Sabre's RoW, Cross-stepping and fleche rules but I still can't find anything regarding illegal swing regulations on the internet so I feel like I'm missing something big.


I hope you don't mind if I give my query a little backstory

This year at uni we've got swamped with a lot of new members (when I began there was only 5 of us regulars and we decided to go mad with the recruitment this year), the coaches have been very busy teaching them the ropes with Foil.

I decided therefore to temporarily take up the Sabre as we are being drilled with the basics again. Anyway in the last two sessions I sparred sabre with our two sabre specialists in the club. The 1st is out of practice and I beat him quite easily, the 2nd is just lazy (who doesn't even join in the warm ups) but still I ended up galvinising her.

I always go for the wrist as it makes sense to me considering the difference in distance and I'm a shorty. I make sure I have RoW first of all then sometimes:

a) use the 'Death Grip' to beat-attack, followed up with a slice down to the sword arm working off the momentum from the blade.

b) use fingers for circular disengage around the blade then going for a quick wrist chop whilst the missed parry happens.

Take in mind that I do use a large arm swings for this to take advantage of working in feints for position, but I'm able to change directions quickly using my wrist and fingers working off the elbow.

I used to box southpaw (right handed flicker) so I have a very fast flexible jab arm and I'm comfortable at using my speed and legwork to take advantage of RoW - I don't feel I'm being reckless or agressive at all.

Unfortunately I have been very accurate with these wrist hits and today I was told by the lazy fencer that I was not allowed those sort of attacks in tournaments because of safety rules? I had to leave early today and get somewhere else so I couldn't ask anyone but now the question has come back to haunt my brain.

Thanks!

[telkanuru]

Unless the hits are made with obvious brutality, I'd say you're in the clear.

[sabreur]

Well, the kind of actions that you are talking about probably would not work against a decent sabreur, and hitting hard to the wrist will not win you many friends.

In fact, hitting hard in general won't win you too many friends.

If you are serious about sabre, learn how to manipulate the weapon correctly. Cuts should be made with the fingers--they can be quite crisp and sharp, but should not replicate the action one uses when hitting a nail with a hammer.

In fact, executing actions from the fingers is considerably faster and more effective than chopping from the elbow. Not to mention more elegant.

MR

[JackOfHearts]

]
In fact, executing actions from the fingers is considerably faster and more effective than chopping from the elbow. Not to mention more elegant.

MR

That, and chopping with the elbow would also expose a lot of target. Your weapon also serves a defensive purpose. Keep it in front of you, and don't expose yourself. You don't need to cut someones hand off if a soft, quick tap will do.

[KD5MDK]

You're fencing badly. Not illegally, but badly, as the elbow work and too hard hits show.

Edit:
I want to expand on this a bit, because it is important. The thing about good fencing is not whether you can make the light go on against an opponent by some slimy trick, but whether you can develop your skills to the point you are in control of the bout. You may win bouts right now, against your two opponents. However, at some point they, or someone else, will wise up to what you're doing, and counter it. Your grip of death beats will be disengaged, and suddenly it becomes your search and their attack. Your elbow based movements will draw attacks in prep and lots of touches to your wrist and elbow. Finally, someone will have this distance and timing to make your actions all fall short anyway.

So it's very easy to say "My results right now are good", but in the long term, doing things the Right Way will serve you much better.

[LesTash]

Thanks for the replies. I've only tried bouting with Sabre 5 times since I began fencing, I'm sure I'll discover the technical comprise for the DeathGrip in time!

The coaches at uni are primarily Foilists so I am working from the mindset that I can only take Sabre or Epee as far as my intrigue can go for now. I agree that it would be very cool to have a Sabreuer to demonstrate first-hand but unfortunately for my situation that's not likely to be the case until the Inter's start up .

In the other respect I am close friends with all the seniors seeing as there was only 5 of us regulars attending the class throughout last year. I also do my part in coaching the beginners (fortunately my Foil is a LOT more refined!) and I always find myself being challenged by them after the tortures of legwork exercises and can't get no towel time! -another reason why I adopted Sabre for now but its all good.

Please do not get the preconception that I purposely aim to be like Conan the Barbarian at all! I've just joined this forum but I am an acolyte in the classic style. I also find it very hard to type out things without purposely trying to make it sound evil. Forgive!


(But with Lazy Girl, I only see her around once a month and she is the most elitist snob you could ever physically meet straight out from the Hitchiker's Galaxy. She is the type who purposely arrives late then steals the best helmet whilst everyone else is busy warming up, grr grr grr)


Again, thank you very much for the insights, I do appreciate!

[jBirch]

The other thing to remember is that in sabre, the cut starts with the threat of 135 degrees. Winding up and hitting hard often require a greater angle then that and so don't have priority until the blade actually forms that 135 degree angle. As well, an attack has a definite ending in sabre so if you miss with your hard hit you've got that much momentum to stop before you can do something useful with the blade again.

That and the slow/open comments above.

Hope this helps.

James.

[edwin012290]

all i know is if a guy was brutally cutting my wrist rather than actually FENCING, i would hit him alot, especially the legs, so that a stop in action is called, and i could beat him again and again. however, that has yet to happen

[oiuyt]

all i know is if a guy was brutally cutting my wrist rather than actually FENCING, i would hit him alot, especially the legs, so that a stop in action is called, and i could beat him again and again. however, that has yet to happen

How does hitting him in the legs stop the action (other than the fact that he's probably hit you, scoring a point)?

-B

[AndrewH]

Your logic of going for the wrist because it's the closest target is applicable in epee, but when you're working within RoW it no longer makes any sense. You don't need to worry about defending yourself during the attack- only afterwards. That's why sabre fencers practice 3 "main" cuts: 3, 4, and 5. Directly to the head or the body. If I was fencing you and you went for my wrist all the time, I'd drop my guard for an easy parry.

Oh, and the goal of the game here is to hit faster, not necessarily harder. In the milliseconds that it takes you to deliver that hard hit from the elbow, an experienced sabre fencer can squeeze their fingers for a fast attack in preparation. And with the new timing, it'd be one light every time.

[rcmatthews]

Sabre is the most elegant of all the weapons, please don't butcher it with terms like slash and chop.

I actually believe that now with the new timings it is necessary to worry about the opponents counter when you are attacking (well, it was before too, but now moreso). If you are fencing someone that tries to counterattack, you should most definetly aim for their wrist/arm. Its closer to you, their arm will be extending if they are countering, and it makes it almost impossible for you to get locked out if you hit it.

There should not be elbow action to make the cut. Its all in the fingers. Hold it like a bird, not so tight that you kill it, but tight enoughthat it doesn't get away.

[Coup de Grace]

LesTash,

The other bit to consider is injury to yourself, outside of ticking off your opponent with a heavy style. Learn the correct method to deliver an attack and you greatly reduce the possiblilty of tendonitis or "trigger finger" (or a black eye).

Sabre is a great weapon in the hands of experienced fencers. I have been on the losing end of beautifully executed attacks that I did not feel- cuts that "bounce" off of me versus slashing through me. That's the goal: to be quick and clean.