Advice Needed

[D'Artagnan1673]

My coach is getting enthused with fencing again since the Summer Nationals are in Austin (sigh) this year.

I want to know what I should consider doing to prepare for the nationals.

Here's my main concern. In the past months that I've taken up epee, I haven't had any instruction. I've developed my own stance and my own methods which at my level of experience and competition, have made me very good. Now that my coach is back, he's going to be wringing my style out of me and bringing me back to the more tradional en garde and the extreme caution which differentiates the epeeist who says "hit right before the other guy" from the epeeist who says "hit and do not be hit".

If I work with him on this for the next few months, it will take me time to start being successful again. What I am worried about is that he is going to get me back on his track and then loose his focus or simply not have enough time to do any work with me. My coach is a parish priest and is very, very busy with the church. He loves fencing but simply doesn't have a great deal of time to devote to fencing.

If he does get out of fencing again, what is to happen to me? I'll be stuck going back to my old ways which will take time to develope. I am not sure what to do or if there are any answers other than hope and do your best to keep your coach involved in your progression.

Any thoughts on this?

[achilleus]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
<strong>My coach is getting enthused with fencing again since the Summer Nationals are in Austin (sigh) this year.

I want to know what I should consider doing to prepare for the nationals.

Here's my main concern. In the past months that I've taken up epee, I haven't had any instruction. I've developed my own stance and my own methods which at my level of experience and competition, have made me very good. Now that my coach is back, he's going to be wringing my style out of me and bringing me back to the more tradional en garde and the extreme caution which differentiates the epeeist who says "hit right before the other guy" from the epeeist who says "hit and do not be hit".

If I work with him on this for the next few months, it will take me time to start being successful again. What I am worried about is that he is going to get me back on his track and then loose his focus or simply not have enough time to do any work with me. My coach is a parish priest and is very, very busy with the church. He loves fencing but simply doesn't have a great deal of time to devote to fencing.

If he does get out of fencing again, what is to happen to me? I'll be stuck going back to my old ways which will take time to develope. I am not sure what to do or if there are any answers other than hope and do your best to keep your coach involved in your progression.

Any thoughts on this?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Depends on what you really want. and what you are willing to do about it.

Personally, for people still beginning coaching is very important, however, a coach you don't believe in won't help you. And from his style of coaching, I'm not sure if his lessons will really prepare you for nationals.

If you really want lessons, bite the bullet, drive to another club to get better coaching.

[veeco]

Well, first of all, set your own goals:

What category/division would you wish to compete in? If you want to field a team you will have to work as a team, and work on team bouts. If you want to qualify as an individual, then all the work is on you.

From that figure out what are the qualifying paths that can take you there.

Then take a reality check: at what level are you competing right now? Do you think that you have what it takes to make it through the qualifying paths right now?

If not, then work with your coach on those weak points of yours to make sure that you can achieve your goals.

Somewhere in the middleish of the season, after fencing in a few tournaments, and before any of the NACs. Look at your goals for summer nationals. What would you like to do? Is it top 8? top 16? top 32?

It's time to enter a NAC for the division you wish to compete into at summer nationals. Go there, and expect that you will perform lower than your overall goal. See how far of a stretch it is, and start working again. Plan on competing in another NAC of that same level again in the year to judge on your progress.

Your coach doesn't have much to do with this. You should share your goals with him, but he is merely a tool or an enabler to make you fulfill your goals. You're an adult and he's not going to make you change significantly as a person. What he can do is devise drills and training methods to help you become successful.

As a personal advice, I would say listen to your coach's advice. Getting locked into one style of fencing is not good generally, it just makes it easier for other fencers to read you and beat you later. It's OK to be really good at like 5 or 6 things, but it's even better to be really good at like 5 or 6 things, and be moderately good at a dozen others.

For example, my style of fencing is mostly (who would've guessed) French. On the other hand, my coach, who's Ukrainian, teaches a very different style. That doesn't impedes my development as a fencer. I learn other things that he's teaching me, and incorporate them into my game. They might be slight variations from what he makes me do in the lesson, but in bouting I find what's most successful for me from that preparation we worked on, or what are the mistakes that I do when I execute the actions we worked on. The next week at my next lesson, I discuss with him what kind of problems I had and we refine the technique together. It's very beneficial for both of us, because he gets to see what Russian specific actions work well with my French style and what don't, and I get to incorporate Russian actions in my French style, therefore creating a new hybrid style which suits both of us.

And one more thing: when you don't know what to do or don't have any sparring partners, it's not time to go home: it's time to do more footwork. Time spent in the salle is time spent fencing and practising and honing skills, not chatting and catching up with the latest gossip in the division. Leave that for the saturday afternoon barbecue, or whatever gathering you can come up with.

When you start dreaming about fencing, every night, you will know you're on the right track.

[scarlet_woman156k]

COMPLETELY agree with Vecco. Everything he said is DEAD, DEAD on. Couldn't have said it better.

And a side note: What I've found (at least at the lower level NACs and lower...and to some degree with higher level fencers) is that all fencers have a "shtick." Once I find out what that is, I just don't "feed" it and completely work around it. Once they can't do their "shtick," they seem to freeze up...but also keep doing it, despite it's ineffectiveness.

The reason I say this is because of Vecco's points above: don't get stuck doing 5 or 6 good things. Have a whole repertoire. It keeps you more unpredictable. You can even do slight variations, and reversals of things. It's extremely fun.

[counter riposte]

If you want to prepare for nationals, all I can say is that you have to train. Somewhere, somehow, anywhere, anytime you have should be dedicated to footwork conditioning drills, running, high bikes, crosstraining. Go back to the thread on Weight Training and Fencing, and check out some of the excercise programs that have been suggested, as well as the footwork conditioning drills on the training portion of this site.

As far as a coach goes, your style WILL change. The entire point of practice is to practice with a fencing partner or coach the proper means of fencing. Practice is of course the time when you DO want to get hit. Getting hit in practice teaches you how to NOT get hit when you are in competition, because you will have learned what styles work for you, and have integrated what you have learned.

When you are on the strip, under stress, some of those old habits will inevitably creep in, as well as some of the techiques of your new habits. Both will help your fencing.

Unfortunately, unlike other sports where you may be able to train yourself, fencing is a learning sport which requires constant study, both on and off the strip.

In a quote I'm sure you have seen from a movie... "You have beaten my giant, which means you must be very strong, and count on your strenght to save you. But you have also beaten my swordsman, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned ..."

The moral is this... You may be strong now, but continuing to study will keep you there.

Those 5-6 things that you do well will best be serviced by a dozen or more things that you can use in your offense/defense.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Thank you all for the very helpful comments.

Achilles, believe it or not, but that has been on my mind. Allow me to go into some depth as to what this lesson entailed.

My instructor started me on the basics simply so both of us would be on the same level of thinkging, something that I agree with. The stance he told me to use was fairly modern in that he brought my non-weapon hand down to level with my shoulder and told me to be more loose. My sword hand was to stay in full supination, thumb at 3 o'clock. Most texts I've read suggest the hand should stay in partial supination until the attack. (remember that I am fencing with a French grip, duh )

We went through me hitting to various sides of his arm. We then went into a move where I keep my distance ("If you watch the olympic fencers, you will see that they fence on the opposite side of the strip and they only come in to attack. When they do attack, its never a straight attack, they either do a bind or some type of feint.") He had me put pressure on his blade and advance. When he put pressure back, I was to disengage and attack to the exposed part of the wrist coming from sixte to quarte. He was very emphatic that I not only complete the action in full supination and that if I missed, that I should continue on into the body.

On actions we practiced in which I was to parry/riposte, he was equally emphatic that I lock his blade out by full supination and raising my arm. He worked with me equally on parrys to sixte and quarte. I've never been one to parry/risoste in quarte because of the inherent dangers of a remise. I've generally done a beat parry and moved out of distance on such attacks. My instructor emphasized that I should raise the bell of my weapon up to lock the blade and then extend, keeping my opponent from being able to remise.

The entire lesson was doing these moves over and over with little to no rest. I learned quickly that I've been lax and I'm really out of shape. I can fence several 15 point bouts in a row using my loose style and be fine, but a lesson about kills me.

One thing that I furthur noted about myself was that I am very proficient at lunging and hitting under the bell when someone raises their guard too much.

As to where I am as far as where I would compete in nationals, I would say I should do well in Div III and maybe in Div II. Honestly, I intend to go and enjoy myself and fence my best. I don't expect to come home a winner in my first nationals. I'm rated E in epee so I've got a little compeitive experience under me.

[achilleus]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
<strong>Thank you all for the very helpful comments.

Achilles, believe it or not, but that has been on my mind. Allow me to go into some depth as to what this lesson entailed.

My instructor started me on the basics simply so both of us would be on the same level of thinkging, something that I agree with. The stance he told me to use was fairly modern in that he brought my non-weapon hand down to level with my shoulder and told me to be more loose. My sword hand was to stay in full supination, thumb at 3 o'clock. Most texts I've read suggest the hand should stay in partial supination until the attack. (remember that I am fencing with a French grip, duh )

We went through me hitting to various sides of his arm. We then went into a move where I keep my distance ("If you watch the olympic fencers, you will see that they fence on the opposite side of the strip and they only come in to attack. When they do attack, its never a straight attack, they either do a bind or some type of feint.") He had me put pressure on his blade and advance. When he put pressure back, I was to disengage and attack to the exposed part of the wrist coming from sixte to quarte. He was very emphatic that I not only complete the action in full supination and that if I missed, that I should continue on into the body.

On actions we practiced in which I was to parry/riposte, he was equally emphatic that I lock his blade out by full supination and raising my arm. He worked with me equally on parrys to sixte and quarte. I've never been one to parry/risoste in quarte because of the inherent dangers of a remise. I've generally done a beat parry and moved out of distance on such attacks. My instructor emphasized that I should raise the bell of my weapon up to lock the blade and then extend, keeping my opponent from being able to remise.

The entire lesson was doing these moves over and over with little to no rest. I learned quickly that I've been lax and I'm really out of shape. I can fence several 15 point bouts in a row using my loose style and be fine, but a lesson about kills me.

One thing that I furthur noted about myself was that I am very proficient at lunging and hitting under the bell when someone raises their guard too much.

As to where I am as far as where I would compete in nationals, I would say I should do well in Div III and maybe in Div II. Honestly, I intend to go and enjoy myself and fence my best. I don't expect to come home a winner in my first nationals. I'm rated E in epee so I've got a little compeitive experience under me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">I've said this to numerous people who were thinking of a coaching change, if you don't believe in the coach, don't work with that coach.

If you don't trust the coach, and you second guess everything, you won't learn much, and you certainly won't use what the coach drills you on in a bout if you don't trust it.

No matter how good the coach is, if it doesn't work for you the fencer, it's not going to work.

That said, beginners (and you are still a beginner), need instruction to develop as fencers. So get a coach.

[D'Artagnan1673]

The only part I'm not terribly sure about is the work on the parry to quarte. I've always read that you should avoid quarte and stick to sixte and octave. Of course there are instances when quarte is the move, but it shouldn't be often. I have also read that when parrying the quarte, you DO NOT raise your bell like my instructor says. Other than that, I agree and feel comfortable with what he teaches.

And even if I had a problem with his coaching, there isn't much I could do about it since the nearest epee coach is in Houston. My lifestyle doesn't afford me the time to make trips like that terribly often.

[swordsen]

The four parry he is using (assumeing I understand your description of it) is rather useful. The raising of the bell is done to hold the opponent's blade so that he can't remise.
It like any other move shouldn't be overdone though. Mix it up with a nice little circle 6 for some variety on those high inside attacks along with some nice counters and you should be ok.
The only thing I personally didn't like that you described was that thumb in 3 o'clock hand position. 1 o'clock in much easier on your hand to maintain and gives you the same benefits.

[Bebop and Rocksteady]

Exercise some patience and wait next year. What's the big rush?

[135711]

you ask a very complicated question. there are several schools of thought. go and fence the style of least resistence and try to win, without trying anything too new that your not comfortable with and the other is to try to fence within the 'correct' style or scope of the weapon and see what happens. seeing what happens is going to set you back, however, if you, or your coach are patient, you'll see a better result several years down the road, because you have fenced more correctly. as they say,it is more difficult to correct mistakes than to do something right in the first place.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Mango,

You've hit it one the nose there. Although I obviosly didn't come out and say it, I was wondering if I should give the "proper" method a chance. I understand that it will set me back. My number 1 fear is that my coach will go off on another hiatus and I'll loose all that time and effort I put into it. I will simply go back to the path of lease resistance until he shows up again and shows interest in teaching me the right way.

I personally have mixed feeling on full supination. I have read that when in a tradional en garde with a French grip, you should keep the weapon relaxed at 1 o'clock. When you attack, then bring the hand to 3 o'clock. On the other hand, for whatever reason, full supination all the time was how my instructor was taught in Belgium. Therefore, long before I knew "better", I fenced in full supination at all times. Since I've moved onto a more relaxed style, my full supination has gone away. However, if I'm going to use his methods to their best, I feel I should work myself back into full supination.

My primary parries are sixte and octave. One thing I have to remind myself is that my instructor is a left. Therefore, the lines that I use to riposte are different in action compared to how I'm taught.