Proposed Foil Changes Demonstration at the 2005 World Championships

[dknj]

I was part of the demonstration at World Championships showing the proposed changes in foil. We fenced wireless foil, which was cool. And we also fenced with the current lamés with and without off-target lights, as well as with modified sabre lamés, once again, with and without off-target lights.

Fencing foil without off-targets basically elimates the need for parry-ripostes.

After the demonstration, the consensus of the FIE was just to implement wireless foil with no further changes. However, since the FIE does whatever it wants, we'll just have to wait and see.

[noodle]

thanks for the info, dan. definitely quenched my curiosity.

[OROD]

Glad to have you here. Thnx for the info. How about the possible timing changes?

I'm happy to hear that taking out the off-target lights and adding the weapon arm/bib as target are no longer being considered. =)


.

[KD5MDK]

How will wireless foil work? Lights on masks and all that? Whose light lights up, and how about off targets?

[Thorin]

Did they make any tests with changed timings -- especially the debounce time?

[OROD]

How will wireless foil work? Lights on masks and all that? Whose light lights up, and how about off targets?

I saw the picture of the mask with the lights in it... it looked really odd. I dont think I'd want to fence with a freekin lightshow in my face!


.

[umbrella]

Epee Rules!

[akaiyuki]

Fencing foil without off-targets basically elimates the need for parry-ripostes.

I can see myself ducking and blocking with my mask then riposte... Which makes no sense in a real duel with a sword coming at you...

[oso97]

I can see myself ducking and blocking with my mask then riposte... Which makes no sense in a real duel with a sword coming at you...

And a mad run at the opponent cumlinating in balestra lunge does? Since this "real duel" wouldn't take place on the nice neat surface of a gym floor, and would instead be uneven, unstable ground.

Why do the same people who criticize modern fencing for the electronic timings have the worst footwork that would get them skewered on the dueling ground?

[akaiyuki]

And a mad run at the opponent cumlinating in balestra lunge does? Since this "real duel" wouldn't take place on the nice neat surface of a gym floor, and would instead be uneven, unstable ground.

Makes more sense than blocking the pointed weapon with your face. There's just no more skills involved... you can block the tip with your non-weapon arm, mask, or even jump up so they hit your leg... that's not fencing...

[esskreemr]

Thanks for the update. For the record DK, you rock!!

[OROD]

you can block the tip with your non-weapon arm, mask, or even jump up so they hit your leg... that's not fencing...

Holy crap... you mean I'll be able to use my Counter-Strike skillz in foil?!? I take it all back... please, oh please, get rid of the off-target light!!!


.

[Grasshopper]

I think the elimination of white lights is a darn good idea. I fail to see why Kellner suggested that it would result in remises, less attacks etc. After all, you can miss your opponent's valid target by 1/4 inch now anyway, not hitting anything at all. "Missing" your opponent completely or "missing" your opponent's valid target area are not so different.

Knowing that if I hit my opponents arm or mask is not going to stop me from attacking, it will just make me make sure to be accurate - is that such a bad thing????

[mrbiggs]

I think the elimination of white lights is a darn good idea. I fail to see why Kellner suggested that it would result in remises, less attacks etc. After all, you can miss your opponent's valid target by 1/4 inch now anyway, not hitting anything at all. "Missing" your opponent completely or "missing" your opponent's valid target area are not so different.

Knowing that if I hit my opponents arm or mask is not going to stop me from attacking, it will just make me make sure to be accurate - is that such a bad thing????

All one has to do is scrunch up into a ball and keep stabbing. Fencers do this with the new timings already.

[Grasshopper]

All one has to do is scrunch up into a ball and keep stabbing. Fencers do this with the new timings already.

that is why we have covering target warnings.

[OROD]

I think the elimination of white lights is a darn good idea. I fail to see why Kellner suggested that it would result in remises, less attacks etc. After all, you can miss your opponent's valid target by 1/4 inch now anyway, not hitting anything at all. "Missing" your opponent completely or "missing" your opponent's valid target area are not so different.

Knowing that if I hit my opponents arm or mask is not going to stop me from attacking, it will just make me make sure to be accurate - is that such a bad thing????

Maybe you missed all the hundreds of posts where people have talked bout all the negative effects to foil of getting rid of the off-target light. In any case, eliminating it would NOT be a darn good idea.


.

[Black Jeebus]

You realize he was one of the people testing the proposed changes right? He has first hand experience based on the first day of using it. Granted it might change over time to reintegrate P+Rip.

[mrbiggs]

that is why we have covering target warnings.

Have you ever fenced a very short fencer, or a lefty, or someone else who has about three inches of very difficult to hit target area? They're extremely difficult to hit, more so now that flicking is not allowed. Also, keep in mind that if an attack lands off target, it will be very hard to remise on target. In other words, if I can block your blade with my elbow, you will have no chance to hit me on target, and I can hit you freely.

Plus, covering target is very inconsistently enforced at the local level, from what I've seen. Many say they don't care about the local level, but that level is what was improved by the new timings in the first place.

[akaiyuki]

Knowing that if I hit my opponents arm or mask is not going to stop me from attacking, it will just make me make sure to be accurate - is that such a bad thing????

Sure, you can try attacking all you want - but you can't stop people from trying to arm-parry, leg parry, nor can you stop them from running their mask into your foil. Jumping up so you hit their leg - that's not covering target area. Running their mask into your foil is not covering target area either. Foil will turn into: Trying to dodge your opponent's point so it hits anywhere but the target area, then remise.

[Craig]

I was part of the demonstration at World Championships showing the proposed changes in foil. We fenced wireless foil, which was cool. And we also fenced with the current lamés with and without off-target lights, as well as with modified sabre lamés, once again, with and without off-target lights.

Fencing foil without off-targets basically elimates the need for parry-ripostes.

After the demonstration, the consensus of the FIE was just to implement wireless foil with no further changes. However, since the FIE does whatever it wants, we'll just have to wait and see.

Dan,

Thank you for the update.

I take it that the other fencers in the demonstration came to the same conclusions?

Looking at the modified sabre lames, I noticed the lack of material on the back of the upper arm. Was that to make it so they only became target when you arm was back? Sounds like we won't have to worry about those for the time being, but we will wait and see.

Craig