Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: Refs - Get your hand signals Straight!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mr Epee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    lebenwelt
    Posts
    4,528

    Refs - Get your hand signals Straight!

    The world of sports is going crazy over hand signals, and last night we had the unfortunate experience of seeing what can happen when they are used improperly.

    In last night's ALCS game, the Chicago White Sox defeted The The Angels Angels of Anaheim, in the bottom of the 9th inning because of a bad call and some confusion over the umpires hand signals.

    The home plate umpire called the third strike, clinched his fist, and gave the out signal. The the Angels Angels assumed this meant the Chicago batter was out, and started to leave the field. The umpire then reversed his call claiming that the pitch had hit the dirt (which it hadn't). In that situation, the catcher is obliged to either tag the runner or throw out at 1st. The catcher heard the out call. The pitcher saw the out call. The runner ended up on first base.

    A few pitches later he scored.

    Game over.

    Horrible refereeing - incorrect hand-signals.

    In a post game interview, the referee claimed that the clinched fist out signal was simply part of his normal motion. Ouch!

    Yes, it makes a difference.
    Take your time. Read carefully.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Posts
    1,832

    Fencing referee hand gestures

    Just to keep the thread fencing-related...

    Fencing referee hand gestures, page 1

    Fencing referee hand gestures, page 2

    The hand signals presented in those docs seem clearer and more complete than the ones in the US FOC's Handbook for referees.

  3. #3
    Din Älskling esskreemr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Somewhere inside your head. Or am I?
    Posts
    4,237
    Yes, the highly subjective nature of baseball refeering is one of the reasons why baseball will never be a popular sport. The calls are simply too confusing for the average audience to follow.

    To improve the marketability of baseball I suggest the following:

    1)Change the name. 'Baseball' is rather boring. It should be called 'Super Happy Funtime UltraBall'.

    2) Reduce the number of 'bases' to two.

    3) Clearly delineate the bases from the ground. Perhaps by using easily viewable stakes.

    4) These stakes could also be a target for the pitcher. Perphaps set a few blocks on top of the batter's 'home' stake. A strike could be clearly called if the pitcher could knock the blocks off of the batter's stakes.

    5) The uniforms. Man, all those team colors really bug me. It's time that every team starts wearing white. Home, away, whatever, everybody wears white. Standard color for the numbers, perhaps allow them to wear socks that show their team colors. Other than that, white. Everybody loves the white.

    6) Change the rules every now and then. Last major rule change was like 1969 or so. Rule changes since then have been minor adjustments concerning materials that the ball could be made of, suspensions, etc. Force these changes on the Little Leaguers first, then when everybody complains, make them mandatory at all levels.

    7) remove the home run. Nobody enjoys those. Also, the foul ball has to go. It just delays the action. The batter shouldn't be penalized for hitting the ball. This will encourage more precise batting action.

    8) Those wood bats have to go. It's time for some spiffy bonded polymer bats.

    If baseball makes these changes, I have been assured by a source I won't (or can't) mention, that baseball will be reinstituted into the Olympics AND will start to get air time on television.
    "Since when does being a patriot in America mean shutting your mouth?"
    ---

    zz,zz,zz,zz,zz,zz!

  4. #4
    Senior Member AllisonT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    at the lab bench
    Posts
    155
    Don't forget to have all the players wear clear lexan caps so that spectators sitting in the upper decks can see the intensity of players' eyes! Catchers will wear a bubble on their heads.
    I'm a lumberjack and I'm O.K. I sleep all night and I work all day.

  5. #5
    Senior Member RITFencing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Wherever I may roam
    Posts
    5,200
    Blog Entries
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by esskreemr
    1)Change the name. 'Baseball' is rather boring. It should be called 'Super Happy Funtime UltraBall'.
    Sounds like something out of late night japanese TV. I would totaly watch Super Happy Funtime Ultraball, but then I already watch baseball, so I guess I don't count.
    "If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner

    "Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz

    But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.

  6. #6
    Senior Member epeemike81's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Chestnut Hill, MA
    Posts
    4,783
    Quote Originally Posted by RITFencing
    Sounds like something out of late night japanese TV. I would totaly watch Super Happy Funtime Ultraball, but then I already watch baseball, so I guess I don't count.
    really? I thought it sounded like cricket....

    -m

  7. #7
    GGK
    GGK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by RITFencing
    Sounds like something out of late night japanese TV. I would totaly watch Super Happy Funtime Ultraball, but then I already watch baseball, so I guess I don't count.
    Do not taunt Super Happy Funtime Ultraball.
    Some will sell their dreams for small desires

  8. #8
    Posting Hound oiuyt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Pennsauken, NJ
    Posts
    12,629
    Quote Originally Posted by epeemike81
    really? I thought it sounded like cricket....

    -m
    Except that cricket DOES have a home run equivalent (send the ball over the boundary rope laid around the field and you score 6 runs, hit it over or to the rope on one or more bounces and you score 4).

    -B
    "Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

  9. #9
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    13,173
    7) remove the home run. Nobody enjoys those.
    Eh? It should score 6 runs.

  10. #10
    Posting Hound oiuyt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Pennsauken, NJ
    Posts
    12,629
    Quote Originally Posted by KD5MDK
    Eh? It should score 6 runs.
    Only if ground rule doubles net you 4 runs.

    -B
    "Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

  11. #11
    Senior Member chiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    203

    If you have to be spot on everytime

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Epee

    Horrible refereeing - incorrect hand-signals.

    In a post game interview, the referee claimed that the clinched fist out signal was simply part of his normal motion. Ouch!

    Yes, it makes a difference.
    ... yea, just ask the bookies.

    Chiz

  12. #12
    Senior Member penguin_2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    294
    In order to make clear when a runner is out of a force play (i.e. fielders attempting to turn double play via 6-4-3, 4-6-3, 3-4-3, etc), the fielder must have his foot on the bag for no less than 15 ms (mid-infielders must carry their own health insurance as well)...

    Every few years or so, they should "experiment" on the size of the strike zone to and the length of the basepath to find what works best.

    But to baseball's credit, no umpires are allowed to call simultaneous or "I couldn't follow the action"... can you imagine, bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, man on 3rd, home team down by 1 run, ground ball hit, runner and the ball arrive at the 1st base at the same time, and the 1st base umpire says, "together, nothing done"... It does make for an exciting game.
    Last edited by penguin_2000; 10-13-2005 at 01:47 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member edew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    CA area
    Posts
    9,503
    I actually think that would be cool for baseball. Imagine a hit to the SS. He throws to first and it's a tie according to the umpire. Re-do. That way, neither side could say they were gyped.
    =)=///

  14. #14
    Senior Member RITFencing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Wherever I may roam
    Posts
    5,200
    Blog Entries
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by GGK
    Do not taunt Super Happy Funtime Ultraball.
    One thousand and one pardons, sir.
    "If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner

    "Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz

    But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.

  15. #15
    Unconfirmed
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by penguin_2000
    Every few years or so, they should "experiment" on the size of the strike zone to and the length of the basepath to find what works best.

    Heh...they already did that...

    http://www.sptimes.com/News/022701/S...ts_to_a_.shtml

    and remember the tie all-star game?
    Last edited by cobaltblade; 10-13-2005 at 03:23 PM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Chafunkta's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    The Driftwood Bar, Louisiana
    Posts
    509
    Mr. Epee,

    While I do not doubt your knowledge on fencing hand signals, because I have just started to learn them, I have to question what you know about baseball umpire's hand signals and mechanics. Obviously you do not know them.

    The ALCS umpires made the correct call, hand signals and everything. On a swinging third strike, the out call is made with the hands as well as with a verbal "Out!" call. It is the same call if the catcher drops the ball (or in his case, if the ball hit the ground). The umpire calls the batter out and makes the signal. The runner can still run if the ball was dropped.

    If the umpire doesn't see the ball hitting the ground, but has a suspicion, then he can appeal to one of the base umpires whether they saw the ball hit the ground or not.

    Say, for instance it's an 0-2 count on the batter and the pitcher throws a strike that the batter just lets go by, but the catcher drops the ball. Is that umpire supposed to not say anything, giving an unfair advantage to the batter by telling him he can run to first? No, the out call is made, and then the batter may run on account of the dropped third strike.

    An umpire's call is not always the end-all-be-all of a call. What happens if a batter-runner is going to first, beats the throw, but misses the base? The umpire will make a safe call indicating that the batter-runner was there before the ball. The batter-runner missing the bag is left to an appeal play by the defense. In order to get the out for the missed base, the defense must then tag the runner (Thus making an appeal).

    So before you criticize hand signals and calls, maybe you should learn the rules and proper mechanics that are to be followed.


    David

    River City Umpires Association
    Just push the button!

  17. #17
    Senior Member Mr Epee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    lebenwelt
    Posts
    4,528
    Thank you David,

    That makes things even more interesting to me.

    You are correct. I do not know what instructions the MLB rule book gives to its umpires. Last night, we learned that most fans, and aparently many professional players also do not know the rules regarding the umpire's hand signals.

    When I see an umpire pumping a closed fist, I expect someone to be Out. The action used by this particular umpire looked to me like the same hand signal given by the first base umpire when the runner is out. Maybe there is some common variation on the hand-signals... but I can only speak as an observer.

    The point here is not to hammer the poor umpire, but instead to point out that variations in hand signals between individual referees can be the source of major confusion. In the worst case scenario, it can change the outcome of an event.

    It's a good learning experience for the many fencing referees here on this forum.
    Take your time. Read carefully.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    south of denver, colorado
    Posts
    371
    To improve the marketability of baseball I suggest the following:



    Don't you think its unfair that only fencers have to deal with new timings?
    I think the marketabilitity of baseball could be improved if there were some new time limits - no more 18 inning games, and maybe limit the amount of time the pitcher has to throw a pitch or else he gets carded for delay of game.

  19. #19
    Posting Hound oiuyt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Pennsauken, NJ
    Posts
    12,629
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Epee
    When I see an umpire pumping a closed fist, I expect someone to be Out. The action used by this particular umpire looked to me like the same hand signal given by the first base umpire when the runner is out. Maybe there is some common variation on the hand-signals... but I can only speak as an observer.
    Interestingly (to me at least) during an interview with Pierzynski I caught tonight there was a clip of the play that he's mentioned several times where he was victimized in a similar situation (at-bat pitcher headed back to dug out, got almost there, then broke for first). In that clip, which I've only seen the once, it appears that THAT umpire also made a similar out signal for the dropped third strike. While the umpire interviews (both the umpire in question last night and the supervisor in interviews today) very much feels like just claiming that the right thing was done regardless of reality, from the other clip I saw it seems that perhaps giving that out signal isn't unusual. I'm inclined to believe that the umpire last night didn't do anything wrong.

    -B
    "Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

  20. #20
    Senior Member Chafunkta's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    The Driftwood Bar, Louisiana
    Posts
    509
    That's a good situation, ouiyt. The batter is not out until he/she goes into the dugout. If you really want to exploit the rules, you can watch the catcher drop the third strike, sulk back to nearly the dugout... and then break for first. The batter-runner is not called out until he/she has entered the dugout.

    There's a ton of ways to exploit rules in baseball/softball. It's great as an umpire telling some of these things to players. They're always amazed.

    If only the players read the rules...
    Just push the button!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Refs counting steps?
    By luv2fence in forum Fencing Discussion
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 05-18-2005, 05:18 PM
  2. Sanzo's straight attack
    By Grasshopper in forum Fencing Discussion
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 09-01-2004, 10:54 AM
  3. Expanding Summer Nationals and Manpower
    By Schiavona in forum Fencing Discussion
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 06-24-2004, 07:24 PM
  4. Level 5 Refs at USFA Qualifiers
    By Crash55 in forum Discussion Archive
    Replies: 89
    Last Post: 09-28-2002, 07:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26