Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Alex_Paul · 10-12-2005, 06:36 AM

Please only vote on this thread if you have read the post below and understand what you are voting on. What I really don't want is a poll where everyone just votes NO to see through masks because they think they look funny or are unsafe!

OK as people may have seen in previous threads I believe that specific threats have been made by the IOC and TV networks that have forced the FIE to adopt Lexan masks in a hurry. I have no evidence for this other than the FIE's recent "Olympic special edition" of Escrime magazine which is more circumstantial evidence than proof. That said, as a manufacturer I am in a privaledged position and have inside information. Please forget whether or not you believe me and just pretend that you do.

Please assume that:
- Lexan masks are safe (they have been passed by the FIE and medical commission but I don't want to get into an argument about their safety)
- There is a real danger that Fencing will be kicked out of the Olympics if we don't adopt Lexan masks.
- Loss of Olympic status would effectively halve the FIE's funding (this is fact as reported in their magazine)
- There are no plans to enforce their use at anything other than top level fencing.
- It is a good thing to stay in the Olympics!

ASSUMING ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE TRUE:
Do you think that a very small minority of fencers, fencing at the elite level should be forced to wear Lexan masks for the greater good of the sport?

Remember assume they are safe, there is a real possibility of being kicked from the Olympics without them and they will only be mandatory for a very few athletes.

JEC · 10-12-2005, 07:01 AM

Alex,

I have seen traditional masks being punctured through by an unbroken epee. I understand your reasoning, but the lunging forces are probably worse in epee than in foil or saber. What will be the next step for epee if those masks are required, to penalize corps-de-corps aiming to decrease that risk?

The market for FIE competitions is considerably small as compared to recreational, regional or national competitors. Thus, it is likely that these masks would be more expensive beside the fact that the lexan only last a couple of years.

I truly think that a bigger obstacle for preserving the sport in the olympics is the quality, consistency and ease of understading of the refereeing. What happened in Athens is what can kill the sport at the Olympics.

In baseball, are catchers less of a figure because of their mask. Or in hockey, are goalies less of a "personality"?, or do they have less TV appeal because of their masks? Sorry, I do not buy your argument (or Roch for that matter) that Lexan masks are going to save the sport.

Alex_Paul · 10-12-2005, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEC

Alex,

I have seen traditional masks being punctured through by an unbroken epee. I understand your reasoning, but the lunging forces are probably worse in epee than in foil or saber. What will be the next step for epee if those masks are required, to penalize corps-de-corps aiming to decrease that risk?

The market for FIE competitions is considerably small as compared to recreational, regional or national competitors. Thus, it is likely that these masks would be more expensive beside the fact that the lexan only last a couple of years.

I truly think that a bigger obstacle for preserving the sport in the olympics is the quality, consistency and ease of understading of the refereeing. What happened in Athens is what can kill the sport at the Olympics.

In baseball, are catchers less of a figure because of their mask. Or in hockey, are goalies less of a "personality"?, or do they have less TV appeal because of their masks? Sorry, I do not buy your argument (or Roch for that matter) that Lexan masks are going to save the sport.

Did you read my post before you voted NO?!!
For the purpose of this poll I am asking you to among other things:

Please assume that:
- Lexan masks are safe (they have been passed by the FIE and medical commission but I don't want to get into an argument about their safety)
- There is a real danger that Fencing will be kicked out of the Olympics if we don't adopt Lexan masks.

What is the point in raising both the safety issue (which I have asked you to forget) and wether or not the see through masks will help (when I asked you to assume that they would)!!!!!! and then voting no on the basis of facors that I have asked you to ignore

Could the people that chose to vote on this PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make sure that they have read and UNDERSTAND what I am asking before they vote.

Pretty please

ReverseLunge · 10-12-2005, 07:38 AM

Stop trying to make money for yourself and your family and think of us for once. The clear masks aren't as safe as the old ones and they look low class and you know it.

Alan · 10-12-2005, 08:00 AM

If an event organizer, even the Olympics, ask for such a stupid thing
it must be boycotted.

Gav · 10-12-2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Stop trying to make money for yourself and your family and think of us for once. The clear masks aren't as safe as the old ones and they look low class and you know it.

The fact is; none of the manufacturers who make these masks make money. LP's is produced by hand as are the rest. It's a time consuming and expensive business.

Alex_Paul · 10-12-2005, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Stop trying to make money for yourself and your family and think of us for once. The clear masks aren't as safe as the old ones and they look low class and you know it.

As I have already explained on other threads they are such a pain to make that we make a loss on each one that we sell and I would rather stop making them and concentrate on core business.

To be honest, the only reason that I have started to champion their cause on this board over the last few weeks is that I am fed up with people bashing them (metaphorically of course) at every available opportunity.

Alan · 10-12-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_Paul

As I have already explained on other threads they are such a pain to make that we make a loss on each one that we sell and I would rather stop making them and concentrate on core business.

To be honest, the only reason that I have started to champion their cause on this board over the last few weeks is that I am fed up with people bashing them (metaphorically of course) at every available opportunity.

Why would you champion their cause ?

If they are bashed by everybody, there is probably a reason.

And again, if they are so good, let the fencers decide by themselves
if they use them or not !!!

Peach · 10-12-2005, 08:13 AM

Now THIS poll is REALLY flawed

Alan · 10-12-2005, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_Paul

To be honest, the only reason that I have started to champion their cause on this board over the last few weeks is that I am fed up with people bashing them (metaphorically of course) at every available opportunity.

Remember when a French Epeist bashed one non metaphorically and
that postponed their usage ?

Should another Epeist do that again to hope that the FIE listens
to the fencers ???

Tiwaz · 10-12-2005, 08:56 AM

If its a case of keeping fencing in the olympics then yes lexan masks should be compulsory and seeing as this ruling in reality is only going to affect the highest tears of the fencing world i don't see why this is such a major issue.
The argument that they're not safe doesn't really cut it with me as the ones i've had experience(mainly Leon Paul) with seem just as safe as traditional ones.

***Craig*** · 10-12-2005, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Stop trying to make money for yourself and your family and think of us for once. The clear masks aren't as safe as the old ones and they look low class and you know it.

RL - I've seen the process for making these masks when I visited the Paul's and got a tour of the Leon Paul factory. I expect that Leon Paul makes more per unit on one of the F100 (non-fie foil/epee) masks than one of these Lexan masks due to the fact that the Lexan masks tie up Barry's time.

If you've got the CEO (or Managing Director to use the UK term) working the production line, that can't be good for costs - or for future product development!

That said - there have been people making arguments that the Lexan masks don't help to make fencing more photogenic, but then there were photos from the Olympics in the sabre event where you could see the intensity in the fencer's eyes as they were going for a touch, and that ended the arguement.

Craig

noahz · 10-12-2005, 10:43 AM

I voted for "no" because it is obvious than you are trying to rig the vote by demanding that people agree with your assumptions before voting. I don't think I'm alone when I take anything the FIE (and its Dear Leader in particular) asserts as "fact" with a healthy dose of skepticism.

I see no problem requiring "elite" fencers to wear these masks, but as for agreeing with all the "facts" you listed...not so much.

PS - I agree with what JEC posted. Fencing needs better refereeing with clearer explanation of why touches where awarded (in foil and epee). Maybe a electronic board that actually displays the referee's call or something.

PPS - If saving fencing is really their goal, then bring back the old timings in foil. In terms of excitement levels, "new" foil is closer to curling than fencing

fluidfencer · 10-12-2005, 10:48 AM

Establish the rules regarding equipment and let the fencers determine what is best for them. If the FIE or IOC has an unwritten rule that lexan masks MUST be used or fencing will be pulled from the Olympics, then just say it!

As a parent of a young fencer, based on the information I have read to date, there is no way in hell I will buy a lexan mask for him. To ask us to disregard the fact that these masks could be unsafe is idiotic.

shlepzig · 10-12-2005, 11:16 AM

Alex,

I think the FIE should push back to the braodcasting companies to support the directive that the lexan masks make fencing more appealing. Without getting the sport black-balled out of the Olympics. The only answer acceptable with you assumptions is yes. The alternative is saying no and standing steadfastly by while we are summarily removed from the Olympics which defies your assumption that the Olympics are advantagous for the sport.

In the mean-time (assuming the masks are safe) they should be allowed and encouraged but not be required for all top level events. Making it known that they will be required for the Olympics will probably get people that are expecting to compete in the O wanting the wear them in competition.

What I have been able to piece together to date is that one or more of the broadcasters have approached the IOC saying that they would be more willing to televise fencing if lexan masks were used. The IOC turned that over to the FIE (Roche) and said, "We need you to use the lexan masks for the olympics so the broadcasters might televise more fencing at the Olympics.". The FIE indicated they would comply and have decided that they should require the use of the Lexan Masks for the world-cups as well. Maybe this was so the top level fencers were all more used to using the lexan masks in 3 years, or so they could work the bugs out of the masks.

What I can't tell if anybody did was question whether the masks actually make the sport more televisable. They have taken the direction from the boradcasters that this will make it so. It seems to me that the FIE rolled over for the IOC and the broadcasters on this issue regardless of safety or actual effect of making fencing more televisable.

So Alex, my question to you for this poll. Can you provide for the rest of us, or direct us to any of the information that the televising companies put together to come to the conclusion that Lexan masks are what the sport needs to be more telegenic. Perhaps there is a compelling argument we have not heard yet that would justify the IOC and FIE's complicity to this judgement.

Shlep.

fencergal33 · 10-12-2005, 11:31 AM

There are several ways to make fencing more telegenic than seeing the fencer's eyes through and obviously controversial piece of equipment.
To name a few...

1) As has been suggested in this and other threads: make the referee's calls more understandable.

2) Start small with a serious marketing campaign targeting the markets you are aiming for. (Whatever, they decide they want to focus on. Kids, teenager, twenty somethings, people with money, etc.) (It worked for figure skating, which used to be a sport tha no one followed or cared about. Now, it's one of the most highly watched sports in the Winter Olympics)

3) Make the change from the all white uniform. Just like in wrestling, NASCAR, etc., people will pick a favorite design or color, and that fencer will always stand out to them. That way, safety wouldn't be an issue, because no equipment would actually be changed. Suppose I had a big green dragon or something painted on my back? Don't you think that someone who flips by fencing on tv might think that's cool and follow "the dragon girl" because I don't look like everyone else?

Just my $.02

Alan · 10-12-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

That said - there have been people making arguments that the Lexan masks don't help to make fencing more photogenic, but then there were photos from the Olympics in the sabre event where you could see the intensity in the fencer's eyes as they were going for a touch, and that ended the arguement.

Craig

The intensity in the fencer 's eyes ended the argument ?

You are really a comic !

Alan · 10-12-2005, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noahz

PPS - If saving fencing is really their goal, then bring back the old timings in foil. In terms of excitement levels, "new" foil is closer to curling than fencing

Can't agree more.

New foil has even a name : Foilepee.

Alan · 10-12-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencergal33

1) As has been suggested in this and other threads: make the referee's calls more understandable.

Just my $.02

Come on ! People even watch cricket and like it ! I don't understand anything to cricket.

So yes make the calls more understandable by having good commentators
to explain the rules but not by imposing (-è_'(-è_çà reforms
like removing the off-target lamps or making the bib valid.

Athens without all these '(-è_ç'(-è_çà reforms was a tremendous success on French TV, specially foil, and we see a very high increase of new fencers in France.

glowstix · 10-12-2005, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

Come on ! People even watch cricket and like it ! I don't understand anything to cricket.

quit knocking my sport..

if its not a part of your history you'll never get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencergal33

Make the change from the all white uniform. Just like in wrestling, NASCAR, etc., people will pick a favorite design or color, and that fencer will always stand out to them. That way, safety wouldn't be an issue, because no equipment would actually be changed. Suppose I had a big green dragon or something painted on my back? Don't you think that someone who flips by fencing on tv might think that's cool and follow "the dragon girl" because I don't look like everyone else?

i agree to an extent. making it too colourful will make it seem to theatrical and errol flynn like, which is exactly the stereotype we're trying to get rid of. the rule book already allows you to add your own personality to your uniform. you can already add a bunch of colours to the off weapon side and the socks. you don't need anymore.

i simply don't buy that the lexan masks are the saviour...there are tons more hurdles to cross. fencing just isn't viewer friendly, you can change the directing, or the camera angles or the commentary all you want...and i really don't care how many tests they do, i'll never be convinced of their safety. fact is, the mask is two piece and there will always be a chance of some freak accident happening.