IF Lexan masks WILL save Fencing's Olympic status should... Please read post before!

[Inquartata]

Dicto simpliciter. This is logic, not geometry.

[Bran]

Hmmm.

I want to know too: are we done with this crap? Fencing will become popular when promoters market the sport better by making elite athletes quasi-celebrities and by having professionally produced television coverage (which is only a matter of money, by the way) -- not through making everyone wear some silly-looking mask.

Again, from that article:

'"Promoters, like ESPN and Eurosport, have consistently asked the FIE to make the sport easier to watch for a casual viewer. In talking with the head of referees for the FIE, Arthur Cramer, he discussed that this is just one of the ideas that are being played around with the purpose of making fencing more telegenic.

“Having no white lights makes it easier for people to follow. People don’t have to wonder what the light is for” said Cramer. I also asked him to elaborate on other changes, like Lexan masks, which will be enforced next year during certain world cups. “Audiences want to see people’s faces, just like they did with astronauts. Astronauts used to have mirrored helmets, but now they have ones where they can see their faces.” While I don’t think NASA made see thru masks for television audiences, this is a consideration for marketability of the sport."'

It's safe to say that ESPN and Eurosport have a pretty good idea of what television audiences want, so I would tend to listen to their expertise. Sport and its promotion is their business.

With fencing, however, it seems that these organizations have asked the FIE for some alterations numerous times with no response. The introduction of the Lexan mask was clearly a decision made to help audiences connect with the sport, most likely as a response to such pleas and naturally the threat of elimination from the Olympics by the IOC. It is obvious that it is one of potentially many ways to increase the visibility of the sport and help a television audience gain interest through the added drama.

You may have a point but I ask what incentive does any promoter have to make a "quasi-celebrity" out of a fencer when there is no meaningful audience to speak of? It seems like they are trying to back this celebrity notion in by making more audiences accept the sport.

Tell me something: if you were a promoter how you would make a "quasi-celebrity" out of someone highly ranked in table tennis?

As for safety -- about five years ago at summer nationals, Zivkovic Sr. showed me his Lexan mask (he was so proud of it!) along with signed correspondence(!!!) from King Roch promising that the masks would soon be mandatory at all WC events. Skeptical, I asked him how safe it was, and he told me "you can be wearing that mask, and I'll fire a .357 point blank at your face and nothing will happen!" I told him: how about you wear the mask and I'll shoot the gun, and we'll have a deal.

This anecdote, which I am sure you have recounted numerous times with crazed, drooling glee, doesn't offer anything as an objection to its safety. Lexan is an extremely durable plastic, one that is used in far-reaching applications.

From Wikipedia:

"Lexan is a brand of highly-durable polycarbonate resin thermoplastic intended to replace glass where strength justifies its cost. The trademark holder promotes the style "LEXAN", but both "Lexan" and "lexan" are commonly used (at least outside the context of sales literature) to describe polycarb without implying claims about its source.

It is similar to polymethyl methacrylate (Plexiglas/Lucite) in appearance, but is far more durable, often to the point of being "bulletproof." Lexan is typically used in the aerospace industry for items such as aircraft canopies, windscreens and other windows, but can often be seen in household items, such as bottles. Lexan is manufactured by GE Plastics, a unit of the conglomerate, General Electric."

From GE's Lexan page at http://www.gelexan.com/gelexan/features.html:

"As the premier engineering thermoplastic, LEXAN® polycarbonate resin replaces the limitations of many traditional materials with its unmatched combination of high performance features.

Strength

One of the most distinctive attributes of LEXAN resin is its high impact strength. Few other engineering plastics can match its ability to stand up to hard knocks in very cold or very hot temperatures. Products made from LEXAN resin are usually shatter-resistant and virtually unbreakable. With the increased strength of LEXAN resin, many products can also be made with thinner walls to be lighter in weight.

Durability

The physical advantages of LEXAN resin begin with its strength and extend to its resistance to the elements of:

Heat (up to 212°F/100°C)
Cold (down to -40°F/-40°C)
Water
Weather
Ultraviolet light
Flame (Underwriters Laboratories UL 94V-0 listed)

Appearance

Many of the visual features of today's outstanding product designs are made possible by LEXAN resin and Visualfx® resins from GE Plastics. From virtually unlimited colors and hues, dramatic surface textures, crystal-clear transparency or translucency to metal flake, speckle and light-diffused special effects – LEXAN resin helps add high style to high performance.

Optical Purity

The beauty of LEXAN resin is more than skin deep. Combining its high purity, exceptional clarity and consistent quality, LEXAN OQ resins are widely used to meet the highest standards in the CDs, DVDs and optical media that are revolutionizing the way we see and hear today's music, video and information. Its optical features also help make stronger, yet thinner and lighter, eyewear lenses that help protect us at work and play.

Kitchen Safe

From the freezer to the microwave to your table, dinnerware, food storage containers, beverage bottles and housewares meet the requirements of the FDA and good taste – in styles and flavors. And, with LEXAN resin's durability, food service products can survive nicely on the patio, at the campsite and in the dishwasher.

Electrical Compatibility

With its broad range of flame retardant grades, LEXAN resin is found in a variety of electrical products including household and personal care appliances, meter and fuse boxes, switches, plugs and sockets, and various components that pass Underwriters Laboratories testing to be part of an electrical product or system."

Six months later at the Montreal Grand Prix, Eric Schreki was bellowing "merde!" and drop-kicking the lexan mask prototype across the gym. Oh well, back to the drawing board. Of course, it would be interesting to see if the design has changed at all since then, or if the manufacturers have just gotten a better "sales pitch" (from the length of Bran and Alan's postings, it looks like the later).

I see this as nothing new - fencers abuse their masks all the time, dropping them on the floor, kicking them around and whatnot. Maybe this guy was having a bad day. Maybe he was trying to appear cool in front of his friends. Who knows.

Bottom line is that Alan Paul and my buddy Bran here are chomping at the bit for Lexan masks to become mandatory for everybody so they can start selling them at $300-$400 a pop. But hey, I'm a reasonable guy -- let's make the lexan masks mandatory only when the event is televised - but if it's not a televised event, they shouldn't be required. Deal?

Okay, okay, you found us out. Thanks to overcharging fencers on the Lexan mask we were able to buy our third Lear Jet and second home (well, it's more of a compound) in the Hamptons. We look forward to a day when the Lexan mask is mandatory across the board so that we can buy France and make it our own little pied-a-terre.

Please get a grip - we are a small company.

I find it remarkable that people complain about the price of one of our masks (all of which are BELOW $300) and yet eagerly pay many, many, many hundreds of dollars for uniforms, sneakers, and such - often regardless of need and if only for the brand.

Let's see, a quick visit to Blue Gauntlet, probably the most price-competitive of all the retailers, reveals:

Uhlmann World Cup 800nw FIE JACKET: $195.00
Uhlmann 'Olympia' 800nw FIE JACKET: $289.00
Allstar Athens 800NW FIE JACKET: $199.00
Allstar Startex 800NW FIE JACKET: $293.00
Adidas FIE JACKET: $350.00
Allstar Athens FIE 800nw PANTS: $119.00
Allstar Startex FIE 800nw PANTS: $195.00
Adidas FIE PANTS: $256.00
Uhlmann 800NW under arm PROTECTOR: $97.00
Adidas Equipment SHOES: $195.00
Adidas Adistar SHOES: $190.00
Adidas 'D' Artagnen SHOES: $105.00

...etc.

These are the low prices around town and we haven't even talked about blades yet!

I really wish I could disclose to you people how much money Allstar and Uhlmann make on their sales of FIE clothing. "Rape" would be an understatement. Trust me: U.S. retailers are making scratch on their sales of Allstar and Uhlmann gear while Allstar in Germany (which owns the Uhlmann brand) is profiting madly. And yet these are the two most commonly worn brands for fencing gear.

Moreover, sneakers cost a couple of dollars to make, and yet go to any tournament and it's Adidas or Adidas....

For masks, Blue Guantlet sells:

Allstar 1600NW foil/epee FIE MASK: $185.00
Uhlmann Removable foil/epee FIE MASK: $179.00
Allstar Removable foil/epee FIE MASK: $170.00
Uhlmann FIE Sabre MASK: $197.00
Uhlmann FIE Removable Sabre MASK: $219.00
Allstar 1600NW Sabre FIE MASK: $205.00
Allstar 1600NW Removable Sabre FIE MASK: $215.00

Zivkovic FIE Transparent Foil/Epee Mask: $250.00
Zivkovic FIE Transparent Sabre Mask: $270.00

In conclusion, if you can spend hundreds and hundreds on everything else that the FIE mandates, then a price differential of about $70-$80 is not going to hurt you. They mandated you pay for FIE-stamped clothing and you complied despite the added cost. Now they are saying that you must wear the Lexan mask at certain tournaments, and so - just like with the clothing - you're going to have to comply and pay the added cost. That's the rule.

Let me reiterate that the current and future profit that we make from the transparent mask will soon help us buy a couple of small islands, like Australia and Japan. I can't wait.

Moving on, someone, possibly in another thread, was discussing the fact that it just takes some time to adjust to new equipment and rule changes. This poster documented changes in foil and how foil had been declared dead about 6 or 7 times in the discipline's history. The sport continued on, however, and so will fencing with Lexan masks from now.

The people that are grumbling about the mask now will eventually fade as and the newer set will think it's totally normal to wear one. Just like how kids born in the last 10 years don't know a world without the Internet and cell phones.

Incidentally, the mask could have been rolled out en masse in the early 80's. If that had happened how would you be talking as you do about the mask now? Since you were born in 1975 you probably wouldn't be talking or even thinking about it at all.

Your 'buddy',
Bran

[Insipiens]

If this discussion is actually about keeping fencing in the Olympics, then I ask, as I have any number of times before, for some scientific marketing research that shows what will or will not make fencing more attractive to TV audiences.

No one, as far as I know, has done any such research.

We continue to have fiddles with the sport that are based on hunches, intuition, idle observations of Spanish fascists (as far as I know, Samaranch was the originator of many of the improvements plaguing our sport, including wireless fencing, no off-targets in foil, and the welding mask).

If we are going to dick with the sport for the purpose of improving its appeal to the great unwashed, then it seems to me that we owe it to the sport, its tradition and its practitioners, to at least make sure that the changes we make actually will have the desired effect. It is not that difficult to do good market research. Personally, I'm not necessarily in favor of changes that keep fencing in the Olympics or make it more interesting to the great unwashed. But if those are your justifications for the changes, THEN DO THE GODDAMNED RESEARCH. Then publish it, so people can debate the issues based on some actual reliable data.

MR

What you are assuming is that decisions made by the IOC on which sports are included in the Olympics are made on scientific research and appropriate statistical data. I agree with the implication of your comment that many of these changes may have little or no effect on the telegenicity of fencing, including potentially Lexan masks. However if the TV companies consider this necessary, and the IOC believes them, then there will be a real risk to the sports continuation in the Olympics.

Of course as the money seems to go to the FIE who spend it on lavish parties for Roch, there may be an argument not to worry about that

[Alan]

What you are assuming is that decisions made by the IOC on which sports are included in the Olympics are made on scientific research and appropriate statistical data. I agree with the implication of your comment that many of these changes may have little or no effect on the telegenicity of fencing, including potentially Lexan masks. However if the TV companies consider this necessary, and the IOC believes them, then there will be a real risk to the sports continuation in the Olympics.

Of course as the money seems to go to the FIE who spend it on lavish parties for Roch, there may be an argument not to worry about that

Why worry about fencing at the Olympics ? After all it concerns only a tiny
part of the fencers population. Even less than those who would be required
to wear these stupid clear visor masks !!!

[noahz]

(massive snip)
Incidentally, the mask could have been rolled out en masse in the early 80's. If that had happened how would you be talking as you do about the mask now? Since you were born in 1975 you probably wouldn't be talking or even thinking about it at all.

Your 'buddy',
Bran

Bran,

In earlier, more civilized times, writing such a post would ultimately lead to your arriving -- with your Second close behind -- in a misty, open field just before daybreak.

I SAY GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!

Noah Zucker

[achilleus]

Dicto simpliciter. This is logic, not geometry.

Flawed logic. I believe the term is slippery slope...

There are many rules that apply to the top 1% that don't filter down.

Take a look at some of the weapon tests, uniform logos, and sponsorship rules that apply at the Olympics.

Sorry, but you can make an argument for why you think it will filter down, but this doesn't mean that it will, or that the converse is true...

[achilleus]

Again, from that article:

'"Promoters, like ESPN and Eurosport, have consistently asked the FIE to make the sport easier to watch for a casual viewer. In talking with the head of referees for the FIE, Arthur Cramer, he discussed that this is just one of the ideas that are being played around with the purpose of making fencing more telegenic.

“Having no white lights makes it easier for people to follow. People don’t have to wonder what the light is for” said Cramer. I also asked him to elaborate on other changes, like Lexan masks, which will be enforced next year during certain world cups. “Audiences want to see people’s faces, just like they did with astronauts. Astronauts used to have mirrored helmets, but now they have ones where they can see their faces.” While I don’t think NASA made see thru masks for television audiences, this is a consideration for marketability of the sport."'

It's safe to say that ESPN and Eurosport have a pretty good idea of what television audiences want, so I would tend to listen to their expertise. Sport and its promotion is their business.

Quoting a person, who makes a reference to promoters is not proof. In addition if you read the quote, he doesn't even say that ESPN and Eurosport promoters asked for clear masks and no off targets.

As for the safety info, thanks, but do you have anything about lexan's ability to take repeated, hard hits over the course of time? How about it's resistance to scratching? Or are we all gonna have to buy LP's model with a scratch layer?

Oh, and the french epeeist mentioned, Eric Srecki (Olympic champ, world champ, etc...) was the one who presented his shattered lexan mask to the FIE which stalled the visor mask project a short while back...

[Bran]

Bran,

In earlier, more civilized times, writing such a post would ultimately lead to your arriving -- with your Second close behind -- in a misty, open field just before daybreak.

I SAY GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!

Noah Zucker

OMG.

Except that it's 2005. A year in which the transparent sabre mask became mandatory for Grand Prix and WC competitions. A year, where, after Leipzig the foil and epee version will be mandatory for Grand Prix, Team WC, and Individual & Team WC competitions.

Adapt for the future or live in the past. It's your choice - you're the fencer.

[Mr Epee]

Adapt for the future or live in the past. It's your choice - you're the fencer.

Bran,

Do you really think that you are helping yourself, your position, and your product by publically insulting highly regarded members of the US fencing community?

You don't gain market share by insulting highly visable clientele.

[Bran]

Quoting a person, who makes a reference to promoters is not proof. In addition if you read the quote, he doesn't even say that ESPN and Eurosport promoters asked for clear masks and no off targets.

You're right, the promoters did not specifically ask for clear masks or no off-targets. No one is contesting that.

I'm sure they didn't ask for a lot of things but consideration was made and the transparent masks seemed, after review, to be one way to help bring audiences more in touch with the sport. No one here has ever said that research was done and the resulting panacea was only transparent masks and nothing else. It's one a number of options.

You seem to want documented evidence that something was on paper regarding the lack of marketability of fencing, since you refuse to believe the same story coming from numerous unrelated sources across the globe. I can't help you here - call ESPN or Eurosport if you want something on paper. Maybe Don Anthony at SwordPlay Studios in LA could help as well?

As for the safety info, thanks, but do you have anything about lexan's ability to take repeated, hard hits over the course of time? How about it's resistance to scratching? Or are we all gonna have to buy LP's model with a scratch layer?

I have no information on your first question (although in thinking about it I should have more) but I am sure the SEMI does, since they are the ones doing the testing. Contact them.

I did post something a while back about testing the Lexan mask and a resulting SEMI report.

As a precaution it has been mandated that shields be changed periodically, in addition to minimizing the scratching issue.

You are of course free buy whichever mask you want, with or without scratch layer.

Oh, and the french epeeist mentioned, Eric Srecki (Olympic champ, world champ, etc...) was the one who presented his shattered lexan mask to the FIE which stalled the visor mask project a short while back...

I've never met the guy, don't know what brand of mask he was using, nor do I know the circumstances, so I can't comment on it. It's nearly impossible to find any information on this Grand Prix (I get 6 hits back from Google), so I'm thinking story is way old, like from 1997. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Shortly, the mask has changed in design since the early years (with improved safety) so a story such as this holds almost no meaning for today's competitors and manufacturing processes.

Bran

[oso97]

Bran,

Do you really think that you are helping yourself, your position, and your product by publically insulting highly regarded members of the US fencing community?

You don't gain market share by insulting highly visable clientele.

While I agree with the part about insulting...

The highly regarded part depends on perspectives. Quite a few people around the sport have very different ideas about who should be held highly regarded, and they don't include anyone invovled in this flamewar...

[keith]

Bran et al,
If you bother to read the document JEC managed to dig up you would realise that what the IOC seems to be bothered about is not apparantly what the FIE is busy trying to force through. Unless the thing that no-one actually believes comes to pass.


Turkeys argueing over cranberries vs sage and onion springs to mind..........

[Bran]

Bran,

Do you really think that you are helping yourself, your position, and your product by publically insulting highly regarded members of the US fencing community?

You don't gain market share by insulting highly visable clientele.

Mr. Epee,

Thanks for your concern but I've seen your previous posts and know that you have a serious bone to pick with my company. Why this is so is beyond me - whoever you are - but you have your reason. So anyway because of that I'll take your defense here with a grain of salt.

I'm on the fence when it comes to jabs at my company and its products.

Jabs at family members - such as the one by Noah - will not be accepted, however, as the tone of my posts suggests. But there's no need for you to step in here anyway - if he can dish it out he certainly can take it.

Bran

[noahz]

OMG.

Except that it's 2005. A year in which the transparent sabre mask became mandatory for Grand Prix and WC competitions. A year, where, after Leipzig the foil and epee version will be mandatory for Grand Prix, Team WC, and Individual & Team WC competitions.

Adapt for the future or live in the past. It's your choice - you're the fencer.

I. SAY. GOOD. DAY!!!!

[noahz]

While I agree with the part about insulting...

The highly regarded part depends on perspectives. Quite a few people around the sport have very different ideas about who should be held highly regarded, and they don't include anyone invovled in this flamewar...

Same for you buddy: more civilized age, misty field just before daybreak.

Just....wow.

[Mr Epee]

The highly regarded part depends on perspectives.

Noah was the silver medalist at last years Div 1 US National Championships.

He is highly regarded - not only for his on strip accomplishment, but also for many other contributions he has made for the sport. His time and experience are valuable. This is a point that shouldn't even have to be made in this discussion.

Thanks for your concern but I've seen your previous posts and know that you have a serious bone to pick with my company.

I think your grips are goofy... that's about it.

And this isn't about my personal opinion of your company. It's about general public perception of your company. I'm simply reminding you that you are damaging your image, when you publicly insult prominant fencers.

Go back and read.
Your family honor isn't at stake here.

[Gav]

What exactly are we getting all het up about?

Guys keep it civil. I really don't want to start censoring posts and stuff. There really is no need for this to get personal.

[Gav]

...
Oh, and the french epeeist mentioned, Eric Srecki (Olympic champ, world champ, etc...) was the one who presented his shattered lexan mask to the FIE which stalled the visor mask project a short while back...

If I remember correctly, it was an early Allstar prototype that never made it to production. This is hearsay (my memory isn't infallible and all that) but heads rolled, over at Allstar, over this incident.

[keith]

If I remember correctly, it was an early Allstar prototype that never made it to production. This is hearsay (my memory isn't infallible and all that) but heads rolled, over at Allstar, over this incident.

But was the failure a mask design issue or a lexan issue? I would suspect that all of the lexan being is used is probably coming from a single supplier; in which case the fact that it was a prototype is probably moot.

[Gav]

But was the failure a mask design issue or a lexan issue? I would suspect that all of the lexan being is used is probably coming from a single supplier; in which case the fact that it was a prototype is probably moot.

Again, from memory, it was a design flaw - not the Lexan (or whicever plastic was in use). The mask in question was of the 'goldfish' bowl type. As a consequence the plastic was weak in the centre and that is why we now have welding masks. I believe the shape was the problem. We are going back a bit and it's possible that my memory is not entirely clear - I just want to make that absolutely obvious before someone calls me a liar. It's also possible that the design flaw was overcome in later models - but I am not party to that information.