An intelligent discussion

[Araznal]

Ok, I wanted to try this idea of having an intelligent discussion in the water cooler, and I just came back from this very interesting class, so I have this topic I want to expand on. The class is called "the Interpretation of Culture" and it's taught by an Australian anthropologist, Michael Taussig. The class deals with running themes in society; more specifically, a culture's definition of such terms as transgression, sacred/profane, taboo, excess, etc. What I find interesting is that through all this class, we have yet to define what culture is. I would like for the willing members of F.Net to try and give me a definition of culture and maybe expound on some of the terms listed before. Personally, I have my own views, but I want to start fresh and let some other ideas float around first.

So, if you think you have a good grasp of the subject, then please share your observations.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Culture is something in yogurt.

[StarFox]

HEHEHE!
culture is what every one has but never shows,especially on mtv.

I take that back...you Araznal have culture and show it very well. that is the truth.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I think a lot of culture is the result of three things - environment, accident, and power.

Environment because hey - what better way to keep people from wandering over to a particular place or eating a particular animal or poisonous berry than by making it "bad" or "sacred"? Example - those tribes that survived by knowing when they had to move uphill just before the tsunami came ashore. Hmm... I wonder what role instinct plays in culture... every group across the planet has its own set of instincts - quite a few of which are completely useless when that group is put in a different environment with different stressors.

Accident... say there's a drought. People are dying all over the place, and one day, some mouthy fellow wanders up to the local shaman or chieftain and starts giving him the gears about how the shaman isn't living up to his job of providing for the town. Shaman gets upset by this, stabs mouthy fellow in the chest, killing him. Two days later, there's a monsoon and everyone is saved. Now, of course, they know exactly what to do next time there's a drought. People are dumb, but they're also very smart (and good copiers). Example - ritual sacrifice.

Power, because in almost every situation, the ruling person/group/association/whatever will do pretty much everything they can to keep power - even by proclaiming to the masses that their challengers are inferior, cursed, or evil for some reason. Example - racism.

But... I dunno.

[Cipher]

Culture is the accumulated behavior of a people. I'd say that it is usually differentiated from other cultures by region and period. It can include things like art, literature, slang, morals, values and other generalized concepts. In short, it could be considered the defining traits of a people in a specific place, in a specific time. This gets rather blurry considering the kinda-globalization that is going on. There is a lot of overlap in cultures.

As for your other definitions...

transgression: anything that pisses me off.
sacred: concept derived from religion - directly associated with whatever is being worshipped.
profane: derived from religion - something that pisses off the worshipped thing.
taboo: something that pisses off the majority of a culture.
excess: the point at which something good becomes evil... according to said culture.

[Araznal]

Well, I didn't expect that kind of definition, though very interesting, TRH. A great example of the power aspect is Kenneth Read's piece, "The High Valley" on the people of highland New Guinea. The relationship between men and women is VERY disturbing.

Personally, I see culture as a multi-faceted force doing the following:
-Makes people do the unnecessary as if it were necessary (ritual)
-It binds people together with ritual
-Marks off what is taboo (only becomes apparent when the boundary has been transgressed)
-Sets aside certain things as 'sacred', leaving all else to be considered profane.

In this last discussion group, I said that 'excess' is what defines culture. To what extent do you agree with that?

[Araznal]

Originally Posted by Cipher

transgression: anything that pisses me off.
sacred: concept derived from religion - directly associated with whatever is being worshipped.
profane: derived from religion - something that pisses off the worshipped thing.
taboo: something that pisses off the majority of a culture.
excess: the point at which something good becomes evil... according to said culture.

Your definition of profane and excess are common misconceptions. What pisses off the worshipped thing is also sacred to the extent that it is removed from society just the same as the worshipped. The profane is the mundane, the everyday. Excess is the opposite of utilitarian, as in anything you've ever done not for your survival (though I know that's over-simplified). Excess is a very hard to define term. It includes your definition, Cipher, but it also extends far beyond that.

[Dan H]

My off-the-top-of-the-head input as a nonexpert:

Culture - The set of values, habits, traditions, and beliefs that differentiate one population from other populations.

Taboo - Any action impermissible under the values, habits, traditions, or beliefs that define a culture. Must violate a value, habit, tradition, or belief that is more important to the culture than a mere transgression.

Transgression - Same as taboo, only the violated value, habit, tradition, or belief is not *as* important to the culture.

Sacred - Describes a value or belief that it is taboo to criticize.

Profane - 1. Describes an action that violates something considered sacred. 2. Describes an action that violates certain specific other tabooes, e.g. prurient nudity.

Excess - Uh... too much of something? I need context for this one.

[bmcfencer]

You get to take a class with Michael Taussig?!!!!! I am inutterably envious. I've read some of his published stuff and it's AMAZING. wow. What's he like in class?

My current opinion on these definitions is that you're not a true anthropologist until you've come up with your own. I am not a true anthropologist, and I spend far too much of my academic life discussing these concepts to have anything consise to say about 'em.

But, wow, Michael Taussig. What university are you at, again?

[Araznal]

Originally Posted by bmcfencer

You get to take a class with Michael Taussig?!!!!! I am inutterably envious. I've read some of his published stuff and it's AMAZING. wow. What's he like in class?

My current opinion on these definitions is that you're not a true anthropologist until you've come up with your own. I am not a true anthropologist, and I spend far too much of my academic life discussing these concepts to have anything consise to say about 'em.

But, wow, Michael Taussig. What university are you at, again?

I was hoping for a vague academic answer, that's what Taussig is expecting of me, anyway. You should share your views.

Taussig is teaching at Columbia University. I'm a visiting student there until I go off to Brandeis. His class is so crazy, and he himself is quite a nut. He has this high pitched laugh that makes you automatically laugh with him. Afterwards, you feel so drained because the subject matter is incredibly vague, but powerful.

What I don't get is why everyone thinks that transgression is like taboo. Transgression is the act of breaking the taboo, of crossing the boundary.

[Epee_Pox]

The difficulty with the definition of "culture" is that it's a word that is broadly used, and has different meanings dependin on who's talking and what they're talking about. An anthopologist discussing the culture of the Zinacantecos of Mexico is not referring to the same concept as a sociologist discussing the drug culture of northern Manhattan. And neither is referring to the same concept as a society lady discussing how cultured her friends are.

I get the sense you're looking for an anthropology definition. So I'd say that, in that context, culture means those attributes of human societies that differentiate them from animal groups. This includes such things as manners, shared ideas, shared beliefs, modes of communication, ways of doing things, societal structure and hierarchy, symbolism, and language.

Different cultures typically vary only partially from each other -- it is difficult to think of two cultures that have nothing in common whatsoever. It is therefore possible to consider a common human culture that distinguishes us from animals, as well as variations on that theme which distinguish one culture from another.

Dunno if this helps, but here you go.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Araznal

What I don't get is why everyone thinks that transgression is like taboo. Transgression is the act of breaking the taboo, of crossing the boundary.

How about this then.

'Culture' is the set of commonly held values that define the group. One of the most powerful of these are the mutually held norms of behaviour - I can, because you are a member of my 'culture', predict your responses and behaviours in any social interaction. This reinforces the group and permits a sense of community.

A Transgression is thus different from an act of illegality - acts that a culture accepts but penalises. It is something that goes beyond accepted norms, beyond what would be the predictable behaviour of a member of that culture.

[Larrison]

How about -- "Culture" is the system of shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviors, and artifacts that the members of a society use to cope with their world and with one another, and that are transmitted from generation to generation through learning.

I've seen this applied in cultural analysis as applied to corporate and social settings. Diagnosing and understanding corporate cultures, and implementing changes to move a culture into a new paradigm is quite interesting.

[ReverseLunge]

http://videos.shooshtime.com/vids/b2...0fe6_rmask.wmv

[latenight]

Originally Posted by Araznal

I was hoping for a vague academic answer, that's what Taussig is expecting of me, anyway. You should share your views.

Taussig is teaching at Columbia University. I'm a visiting student there until I go off to Brandeis. His class is so crazy, and he himself is quite a nut. He has this high pitched laugh that makes you automatically laugh with him. Afterwards, you feel so drained because the subject matter is incredibly vague, but powerful.

What I don't get is why everyone thinks that transgression is like taboo. Transgression is the act of breaking the taboo, of crossing the boundary.

Ah college......the great old days of when I could worry about the difference between taboo and trangression.....


anyways, I don't believe in taboos.........imaginary rules that limit one from experiencing life fully.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by latenight

anyways, I don't believe in taboos.........imaginary rules that limit one from experiencing life fully.

i agree....

[Epee_Pox]

What do you mean, you don't believe in taboos? You don't believe they exist? How strange. I know very well they exist in almost all cultures.

Taboos in my own culture include such things as: don't eat humans, don't have sex with children, don't use the "n" word if you're white, don't kill except as a last resort of self-defense, etc.

[Go? Fencing?]

I'd like to point out that "profane" comes from the Latin for "in front of the temple," meaning everything that is not sacred, or as Araznal says, everyday.

This class you're taking sounds a bit like the Philosophy and Social Ethics class I'm taking. Lots of stuff that gets you confused, leaves you wondering, and makes you love it all the same.

My personal definition of culture (put succinctly): A set of beliefs.

One of the problems with culture is that it's possible to belong to multiple cultures with conflicting beliefs about certain things- such as being a Catholic who doesn't accept abortion, and also being a Domocrat who believes in pro-choice.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Araznal

Ok, I wanted to try this idea of having an intelligent discussion in the water cooler.

Your thread is insulting. You are implying that we aren't capable of intelligent discussion and you are showing us that we need you to lead the way. What is it with you Jewish people? I think you have taken the "chosen people" thing way too far. As a hard working black Baptist that I am I am telling you to settle down. You hear me? Settle down!

Culture is shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviours, and artifacts that the members of society use to cope with their world and with one another, and that are proudly transmitted from generation to generation through heritage.

America has little or no heritage and she dilutes the heritage of others who come to America while promoting the dissasemblement of culture and heritage worldwide.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by