Are liberals killing the Dems?

[jeff]

Slim's line "there are right wing-nuts too, but the liberals are generally more much more radical and extreme in trying to drive home their points." illustrates that the "extremists" are always the ones from the other side.

I would have said that it's always been the right that has been the most virulent and effective at smearing their opponents: from Nixon (calling his congressional opponent a "pinko") through Atwater (who openly stated how he used racism to gain votes - it's public record), to Karl Rove and the Swift Boats.

It's always a matter of "whose ox got gored", isn't it.

[Slim]

Originally Posted by Gav

Oh dear - Goddards Law - I see that this thread lasted a long time.

How ironic that a Bush supporter should invoke the big H when he is a supporter - shouldn't it be someone from the other side?

Give yourself a rep point.

[Slim]

Originally Posted by jeff

It's always a matter of "whose ox got gored", isn't it.

Indeed it is.

[Peach]

I say Vote for Zod

[L.O.A.S.]

Another observation I've made is of the Christian Theocrats who've made "being religious" a bad term. It's become embarassing to say, "I'm a Christian," because of the implications that it could mean that you are small and closed minded, likely isolationist, and definitely greedy and self-centered. It's too bad. Many people find great comfort and solace in the peace of their faith, but the wacko's on the right are using it against the intention of it's purpose.--

Originally Posted by Larrison

I really agree with this --

Please clarify. Do you agree that Christians do feel ashamed of admitting their faith, or should be ashamed of admitting their faith?
If you were to ask mainstream America if 1) they are ashamed to be a Christian, or 2) should they be ashamed to be Christian, I think most would answer no, causing further confusion with the fringe left, and further illustrating their disconnect with the mainstream.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Slim

Here are some examples of some things equated with liberalism that people I know who could be considered "independent" get really tired of hearing about:

We all get tired of hearing about it.

1. Gay marrige/homosexual agenda - people resent sexuality and alternative lifestyles being shoved down their throats

Then tell the right to stop bringing it up everytime their poll numbers are down. I still don't understand why this is such the issue it is, then I remember that it is the Right-wing nuts that make sure that it is continually in the media focus.

2. Bush = Hitler - It's off the wall and people resent their president being equated with someone responsible for genocide.

Fair enough. It is important to note that he was a religious zealot, veiled his government in secrecy, consolidated power, and stirred up nationalism to the point it became a form of mind control. Most of the people were shocked about what went on in the internment camps. They had the wool pulled over their eyes. Of course, many refused to listen to the non-official reports of the illegal detainment, torture and murder that we know were happening on a daily basis. Oh hell, I lost track of whether I was talking about Bush or Hitler...

The point is that "the left" brings up the comparison every so often because there was a series of events that led to the brutal rise of the Nazi regime. To equate the number of innocent people who have been killed in Bush's War on Iraq with the Nazi genocidal campaign against the Jewish people is absurd, the difference is staggering. Yet Hitler serves as a very poignant reminder that controls against government power are there for a reason, a VERY GOOD reason.

3. Increase taxes for more social/entitlement programs - Clinton knew this and got some major points for welfare reform.

Hey, I'm all for streamlining social programs. Only problem is that Repubs don't want to fix it or improve, they want to break it beyond the point of repair.

4. Removing the flag and religious images from long standing traditions - No more nativity scenes, flag burning is A.O.K., no more "Under God" in pledge.

Interesting that you place the flag and religious images in the same category.
Where exactly was the flag removed from a long standing tradition? I must have missed that one.

As for removing religious images from long standing traditions, I've always felt that the Bible had a VERY strict message AGAINST religious imagery because it supports the worship of the image and not what the image represents.

'Under God' out of the pledge? The Pledge of Allegiance is meant to express patriotism to the United States. Why put God in there? Isn't that something you should be doing on a weekly basis in Church and through your actions on a daily basis? It doesn't say which of the many gods, though it implies it. Our Constitution gaurantees us the Freedom of Religion. I wholeheartedly support that.

As an interesting note. The original Pledge of the United States was written by a socialist, Francis Bellamy who ommitted any reference to the U.S.: "[i]"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

5. Teaching manditory "Koran Sensitivity" while trying to ban classroom prayer time.

What was that 1 school out of thousands?

6. People like Noam Chomsky saying "911 - We deserved it"

I've never actually seen a legitimate quote where Noam Chomsky said 'we deserve it.' Perhaps you could supply a reference. If I describe the events that led to a house fire that killed 3 children: 1) Dry season, 2) Wood house, 3) Arsonists and a can of gasoline started the fire, am I saying the childrend deserved to die in the fire? I haven't read Chomsky's book. I may have missed the quotes. Until you can provide the quotes, I'll just assume it was a Rightist interpretation of his books. It's amazing how easy it is to get misinformation perpetuated in Right-biased media. Reminds me of the "Al Gore said he invented the internet" ploy that the righties used, he NEVER actually said it.

7. The ACLU - defending dirtbags like NAMBLA doesnt do much for their image

Yes, the ACLU, the flagship of the left. The ACLU serves its purpose. You insinuate that the left wholly supports every action that the ACLU takes. A ridiculous assumption that merely supports the idea the left is comprised of a more diverse group of people.

8. Socializing health care

Is that the same as providing health care? Making sure that health care is affordable and available to every man, woman, and child in the U.S. I think that you are incorrect in your assumption that most people consider this to be a bad thing.

I'm not arguing the points.

You never do, why would we expect you to change now?

I'm just stating that out here in suburbia, the "fly over states", these are some issues that really rub the average person the the wrong way. It doesnt matter if they are right or wrong, it's usually the way in which they are presented/executed that makes people turn away.

I agree. Let's make an effort to stop the Right from bringing up the 'homosexual conspiracy' every couple of days. As a note, I don't even live in the Suburbs, I live MUCH further out...

And I am sure that you can list just as many things the right wing-nuts do to get your goat.

True dat.

But the dem leaders definitely know something has to give. Even Carville is out their screaming about it. If the dems make illegal immigration and spending their issue in the upcoming elections, they're in a good position to do some damage. Not enough, hopefully, but some for sure.

Yep. The Democrats definitely need to consolidate their vast differences and disparaging views into a cohesive compromising ideal. They need to have a coherent voice that propogates their true beliefs and ideals instead of allowing the Right-wing controlled media to put words in their mouth.

[Coup de Grace]

Originally Posted by Peach

I say Vote for Zod

So...is he Democrat or Republican?

[telkanuru]

Better than Zod...

[Slim]

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...t_x.htm?csp=34

This idiot wears this shirt on an airplane, then gets upset when they ask her to cover it up, then decides not to cover it up and leave, then goes running to the ACLU about her freedom of political expression.

How about some common sense?

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Slim

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...t_x.htm?csp=34

This idiot wears this shirt on an airplane, then gets upset when they ask her to cover it up, then decides not to cover it up and leave, then goes running to the ACLU about her freedom of political expression.

How about some common sense?

How about some freedom of expression? Why should there be any debate over this? It's certainly not up to the standard of shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre, so I would say those that don't like government interfearing on every level of their life would see this as a good thing...

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Slim

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...t_x.htm?csp=34

This idiot wears this shirt on an airplane, then gets upset when they ask her to cover it up, then decides not to cover it up and leave, then goes running to the ACLU about her freedom of political expression.

How about some common sense?

Ha ha, this idiot stole millions from American workers, caused thousands to lose their retirement funds and dragged a multi-million dollar company into the ground in a case that will most likely cost taxpayers millions. He then dumped millions into lawsuit-proof accounts that can't be touched by the new bankruptcy laws that go into effect on the 17th. Ha ha, now he's claiming that he's bankrupt. He was a Bush pioneer, raising quite a bit of cash to get him reelected. Looks like he got what he paid for. Some Americans will end up losing their houses due to the inbility to pay medical bills. Kenny Lay will be sipping margaritas on a beach in Cancun...

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...on_insure.html

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Slim

Give yourself a rep point.

No thanks Slim - that's your job.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Slim

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...t_x.htm?csp=34

This idiot wears this shirt on an airplane, then gets upset when they ask her to cover it up, then decides not to cover it up and leave, then goes running to the ACLU about her freedom of political expression.

How about some common sense?

So, you put the sensibilities of those airplane travelers over freedom of expression.

Ugh.

You are one loathsome creature, and if bad luck befell you when I were looking I would go out of my way not to help you.


To the rest of you:
Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Ha ha, this idiot stole millions from American workers, caused thousands to lose their retirement funds and dragged a multi-million dollar company into the ground in a case that will most likely cost taxpayers millions. He then dumped millions into lawsuit-proof accounts that can't be touched by the new bankruptcy laws that go into effect on the 17th. Ha ha, now he's claiming that he's bankrupt. He was a Bush pioneer, raising quite a bit of cash to get him reelected. Looks like he got what he paid for. Some Americans will end up losing their houses due to the inbility to pay medical bills. Kenny Lay will be sipping margaritas on a beach in Cancun...

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...on_insure.html

....and not too surprising, but this one is also a close, personal friend of George W. It's good to have friends with the money and the power that can keep you out of jail.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0708042lay1.html

[Slim]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!





So, you put the sensibilities of those airplane travelers over freedom of expression.

Ugh.

You are one loathsome creature, and if bad luck befell you when I were looking I would go out of my way not to help you.


To the rest of you:
Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

Wow, now that's cold.

[Slim]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Ha ha, this idiot stole millions from American workers, caused thousands to lose their retirement funds and dragged a multi-million dollar company into the ground in a case that will most likely cost taxpayers millions. He then dumped millions into lawsuit-proof accounts that can't be touched by the new bankruptcy laws that go into effect on the 17th. Ha ha, now he's claiming that he's bankrupt. He was a Bush pioneer, raising quite a bit of cash to get him reelected. Looks like he got what he paid for. Some Americans will end up losing their houses due to the inbility to pay medical bills. Kenny Lay will be sipping margaritas on a beach in Cancun...

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...on_insure.html

Ha Ha?

If he's guilty, he should rot in jail. And based on other high profile cases of this nature, he probably will, just like Ebbers and Co over Worldcom, and Kozlowski over Tyco.

[counterattack]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

So, you put the sensibilities of those airplane travelers over freedom of expression.

Ugh.

You are one loathsome creature, and if bad luck befell you when I were looking I would go out of my way not to help you.


To the rest of you:
Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

Peter,
This seems a little harsh. Do you realize that airplanes are private property? And that they just wanted her to cover it up? And the word "****er" is considered quite profane?
If I ran the plane, they would be allowed to wear the shirt, though I don't agree with the sentiment. But they own the plane, and you don't have a right to go into somebody's place of business and make your political opinions known. The passengers are their customers and if they don't want their customers offended, then they can ask a lady to cover up a profane shirt.
There is a mistaken assumption among a lot of people here and elsewhere that the First Amendment applies to private citizens and companies. It does not. It protects you from actions from the governement. Southwest Airlines is not the government.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by counterattack

Peter,
This seems a little harsh.

Harsh maybe, but still befitting. Any reasonable morals system will allow people not to help those that they feel unworthy of it, and I would in this (as of now purely hypothetical) case just be exercising that unalienable right.

Originally Posted by counterattack

Do you realize that airplanes are private property? And that they just wanted her to cover it up? And the word "****er" is considered quite profane?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Originally Posted by counterattack

If I ran the plane, they would be allowed to wear the shirt, though I don't agree with the sentiment. But they own the plane, and you don't have a right to go into somebody's place of business and make your political opinions known. The passengers are their customers and if they don't want their customers offended, then they can ask a lady to cover up a profane shirt.

I followed the link that Slim provided. In it, it was stated that:
1. She had worn the t-shirt in easy view of Airline employees for a long time before boarding the plane, and gotten no warning or mention.
2. When confronted, she had agreed to put another article of clothing infront of it, and done so.
3. While asleep, that article of clothing fell down, revealing the text.

If they really found it that bad, I think that they should have said so before she had boarded the plane.

Originally Posted by counterattack

There is a mistaken assumption among a lot of people here and elsewhere that the First Amendment applies to private citizens and companies. It does not. It protects you from actions from the governement. Southwest Airlines is not the government.

I am aware of that. Note that I did not mention the 1st amendment in my first post.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson