Armband Ranking in Canada

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

If you are considering moving there, you might want to choose Calgary over Edmonton. Calgary has a great Epee club and the weather is milder.

actually i was considering calgary.. i've been doing a tiny bit of research and although i like toronto (from what i remember at least), i think alberta is better for what i'm trying accomplish (professionally, not fencing wise, although that would be a bonus). i heard the economy is pretty strong compared to ontario..and cost of living is not as bad..

[Fencergrl]

I think it is one of the less expensive provinces to live in. A big part of the economy is the oil industry.... and we all know how that's doing...

There's no provinical tax (only federal), their provincial debt is paid off and they're in pretty good shape. A lot of companies set-up their offices there. They get chinooks (warm winds) in the winter. It's close to the mountains for skiing and snowboarding in the winter and camping in the summer.

I really like Alberta. My husband is from that province, so I'm there at least once a year. The people are great. Real down to earth. I think you will be quite happy with your choice.... okay once you learn that you need to plug your car in, in the winter!

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by CheekyCanuck

Has your club picked it up yet?

I fence at two clubs. One is a varsity team. It has not picked it up, and likely will not pick it up.

The other is a youth-oriented club, and we are moving to it there, for a couple of reasons: The first is because skill development is a better way for young fencers to measure their progress than competitive success is, and the second is because some want to make it to the Canada Winter Games, and being at the required armband skill level is a necessity for it.

Do you like the idea?

I do and I don't. There are a lot of fencers out there that are very, very ignorant about the sport, aside from the two or three actions that they're good at on the piste. This should help correct that.

On the other hand, an ability to mechanically reproduce a wide array of fencing actions is not at all an indicative of competitive success in fencing.

So far, I like the idea. It's a sytem that encourages fencers to develop a full range of skills (even if they don't use most of them in competition), and to actually *know* about fencing. So far, it seems to largely be used as a set of goals for young fencers.

If these start to be requirements for adult competitive fencers, however, I'll stop liking it as much. Will fencers be required to be self-assured when analysing a fencing phrase as a referee (blue armband - foil) to fence in Nationals? Why? How about make a decent attack with opposition (green armband - foil)?

It should be obvious that one could perform very well competitively without having a decent attack with opposition -- nevermind being a confident referee. If these become requirements to be a competitive fencer, I'll be less sure that they're a good thing. To me, they would seem to be along the lines of making sure that a swimmer can do the backstroke in order to compete in a freestyle-swim race. They probably ought to, but it really doesn't matter much.

Are there any countries outside of Canada that are currently doing this?

Yes, the Canadian system is based (at least loosely) on the French one.

Personally, I don't like it. It will just be another reason to charge members $ for "testing". It is possible for someone to know everything about how to fence, but still be a bad fencer. Our head coach wants to institute this soon.

In part you're right. The CFF is broke, and the badges seem to be overpriced, to me -- I think it's likely in the hopes that they can get extra money above and beyond membership fees.

On the other hand, I don't think that coaches are required to give out the actual CFF-bought badges, and there's no requirement from the CFF to charge for badge-testing,

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by glowstix

actually i was considering calgary.. i've been doing a tiny bit of research and although i like toronto (from what i remember at least), i think alberta is better for what i'm trying accomplish (professionally, not fencing wise, although that would be a bonus). i heard the economy is pretty strong compared to ontario..and cost of living is not as bad..

Leslie Palmai from the Epic Fencing Club is a great epee coach.

Notably right now I think he has Brita Goldie (#1 at Canadian National's last season) and Catherine Dunnette (National team member). Andrew Pickup fences there and he is a strong men's epeeist as well. Can't remember who else but there are probably more. He has good foilists too and has trained great fencers in the past as well. There are a couple other good clubs in calgary but in terms of men's epee I'd say Epic is the place to be.

[Fencergrl]

Thanks dramamine, Epic was the club I was thinking of.. it just wasn't on the tip of my tongue and I knew someone else would jump in.

[CheekyCanuck]

Originally Posted by glowstix

not too off topic but is there good epee fencing in alberta??

Epee fencing is not good anywhere.

[CheekyCanuck]

Originally Posted by kalivor

In part you're right. The CFF is broke, and the badges seem to be overpriced, to me -- I think it's likely in the hopes that they can get extra money above and beyond membership fees.

On the other hand, I don't think that coaches are required to give out the actual CFF-bought badges, and there's no requirement from the CFF to charge for badge-testing,

That's interesting. I didn't even know there were badges.

[SJB]

Ok forgive me if I reiterate anything anyone else has said as I am at school now and just scanned the post.

As the first Albertan coach to be certified in the armband system (not me extolling myself as the Province's best coach, rather just the only Albertan present) I like and support it.

It is, as Veeco and Zil. said used in Europe and was primarily used in France and this is where the CFF borrowed the idea from.

If you read the chart you can see that it is almost exclusivelyfor younger students and not for higher level students. Unless you want to do a "triple black armband" say.

A sense of accomplishment is felt by the children as they now have something to show. Especially since not every youth will win one of 4 medals at each tournament they attend.

In terms of coaching there is another component that I agree with and that is that *all* coaches must be nationally certified in the armband system. Now before everyone gets up in arms let me explain:

This is to ensure a national network of quality, compentancy based coaching. As under the new system if you, as a coach, are not a participant in the armband system your students will be unable to participate in any CFF competitions.

This isn't as discriminatory as it sounds. Rather, this is to combat coaching abuse. And by that I mean something like this:

Fencer A fences for two weeks in University and afterwards moves to somewhere in Canada and opens a club, declaring him/herself a "fencing master". Since Fencing in Canada is relatively unknown not many people will question this dishonest ruse that sadly does happen in Canada (cough ONTARIO cough) and will fence under someone grossly unqualified.

In terms of coaches with formal training, I was a level II NCCP in all three weapons prior to the CBET system, you can choose to apply at a higher level versus starting from the bottom. Ie. My coach was trained in Hungary and simply went right ahead and did his black level for all three weapons. Not to mention he sits on the national examination board.

Finally, for your practicum exam you are given a beginner and told to give him/her a lesson including all of the requirements for whatever colour/weapon you apply for. This is done in front of an examination board consisting of two national team coaches and the Technica Director of the CFF (and it can be quite nerve wracking).

[SJB]

Oh and as an aside, if anyone needs/wants any information on Epic in Calgary please message me and I will gladly answer your questions.

And if you're ever in the area we'd love to have you as our guest .

In the meantine here are some facts:

Women's Epee:

Brita Goldie, 2005 Sr. WE National Champion, former WE Cadet, Jr National team member.

Catherine Dunnette, Sr. WE's National Team member, #2 (behind Sheraine McKay) WE Olympic Team Member in Athens,

Jenny Noel, currently #3 on the Cadet WE rankings.

Men's Epee:

Andrew Pickup, Alberta Provincal Team, 9th National rankings

Brad Goldie, Provincial Champion 04.

Darragh O'Malley. former Junior National ME member, Silver medal at the CSC #1 in Montreal.

Men's Foil:

Anthony Prymack, U15 National Champion 05, #8 Cadet, #5 Junior

Women's Foil:

Rhiannon Kirkland, U15 National Champion 05

Head coach Leslie Palmai, Maitre D'Armes (Hungary) in all three weapons. Former Men's Foil National Team coach, Current WE national team coach.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by SJB

Oh and as an aside, if anyone needs/wants any information on Epic in Calgary please message me and I will gladly answer your questions.

if all goes well, i may be over there about this time next year..hopefully.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by SJB

In terms of coaching there is another component that I agree with and that is that *all* coaches must be nationally certified in the armband system. Now before everyone gets up in arms let me explain:

This is to ensure a national network of quality, compentancy based coaching. As under the new system if you, as a coach, are not a participant in the armband system your students will be unable to participate in any CFF competitions.

Then a yellow or orange armband would be sufficient, no?

But that's not the case. Higher-level armbands are what's being considered. And to get a higher level armband, you need to be examined by an outside coach, whch will get politics involved ... meaning that factors other than your actual skill level will become involved in whether or not you're allowed to fence in Canada:

If coach B thinks very highly of coach A, then coach B will give coach A's students their green and blue armbands, with a lot of leniency. Coach A, in turn, has an old rivalry with coach C. Coach C's fencers rarely, if ever, manage to pass the very subjective test from coaches A and B, who are able to make it as difficult as they like.


Also, with the higher-level armbands, because the test must be administered by an outside coach, that means that YOUR coach doesn't need to be certified at all! You can't get your required armband from them, even if they're qualified to teach all the way up to black!

And what about fencers from the U.S.? Are we requiring that their coaches be certified in Canada, too? How do we measure the competency of a foreign fencer?

And if American fencers don't need armbands to participate then perhaps all a Canadian fencer has to do is join a club in the States, and get a USFA membership.

This isn't as discriminatory as it sounds. Rather, this is to combat coaching abuse. And by that I mean something like this:

Fencer A fences for two weeks in University and afterwards moves to somewhere in Canada and opens a club, declaring him/herself a "fencing master". Since Fencing in Canada is relatively unknown not many people will question this dishonest ruse that sadly does happen in Canada (cough ONTARIO cough) and will fence under someone grossly unqualified.

I'm not sure why Ontario gets your coughs, but ...

How will this prevent such things from happening? There's certainly no media drive to ensure the credentials of your so-called "fencing coach." Regardless of the criteria by which we designate people as coaches, it won't alter the public perception, or stop unqualified people from claiming qualifications.

In fact, the CBET (Competency-Based) methodology, while an improvement (I seem to recall it required little more than showing up to receive your level 2 under the old NCCP program ... the initial stages of the new one are far more rigorous), is a change that's being made at the Sport Canada level, and trickling down into all sports in Canada.

As such, it is not the result of any of the CFF's concerns. A new system was required by Sport Canada.

[SJB]

Originally Posted by kalivor

Then a yellow or orange armband would be sufficient, no?

Yes. Even with a yellow/orange armband your students are allowed to compete. At any competition anywhere in the country.

Originally Posted by kalivor

But that's not the case. Higher-level armbands are what's being considered. And to get a higher level armband, you need to be examined by an outside coach, whch will get politics involved ... meaning that factors other than your actual skill level will become involved in whether or not you're allowed to fence in Canada:

If coach B thinks very highly of coach A, then coach B will give coach A's students their green and blue armbands, with a lot of leniency. Coach A, in turn, has an old rivalry with coach C. Coach C's fencers rarely, if ever, manage to pass the very subjective test from coaches A and B, who are able to make it as difficult as they like.

Not exactly. It isn't the *other* coaches who determine what armbands but rather the other coaches who determine what armbands you can give your students. Ie. When I did my exam the examination board was Manuel Belmonte, Leslie Palmai and Claude Seguin. I found it helpful to have feedback from multiple sources and different viewpoints.

I don't know about the validity of your political situation as the board would most likely be two coaches and a CFF rep. Like my examination above I think the variety of coaches would help, not hinder. Also, the armbands are a set of actions chained together and *never* change. Thus there is no "making the test as hard as you like" because the requirements are clearly detailed on the armband program.

However, I think some coaches in the country, ie. Canadian born/raised/never-fenced-outside-of-Canada, may be humbled by the exams when they find out they aren't the coach they thought they were.

Originally Posted by kalivor

Also, with the higher-level armbands, because the test must be administered by an outside coach, that means that YOUR coach doesn't need to be certified at all! You can't get your required armband from them, even if they're qualified to teach all the way up to black!

Your coach HAS to be certified in the armband system or you CANNOT even TAKE the exam. The concept behind the armband system is a national competancy based set of coaching standards. If a coach isn't certified his/her students cannot compete until their coach is certified and then they make begin taking their tests.

And what about fencers from the U.S.? Are we requiring that their coaches be certified in Canada, too? How do we measure the competency of a foreign fencer?

Competency of a foreign fencer is determined by the Directoire Technique during the competition. For example. American fencers in the top 32 of their national rankings are usually given a top 16/top 8 ranking in the intial rankings. European fencers with FIE standings are also placed accordingly.

If a foreign fencer moves to Canada and wants to participate the coach and the fencer can simply look at the armband program and decide what level the student should take the exam at. This is of course if the coach has not determined the fencer's level from lessons, bouting observation etc.

And if American fencers don't need armbands to participate then perhaps all a Canadian fencer has to do is join a club in the States, and get a USFA membership.

If you feel like working your way through the regional qualifiers, Div III ---> Div II ---> Div I NACS and the hundreds of people (and hundreds of US dollars) it will take you to do so, that is your perogative.

It is much simpler, and cheaper, to include yourself in the system.

Originally Posted by kalivor

I'm not sure why Ontario gets your coughs, but ...

How will this prevent such things from happening? There's certainly no media drive to ensure the credentials of your so-called "fencing coach." Regardless of the criteria by which we designate people as coaches, it won't alter the public perception, or stop unqualified people from claiming qualifications.

Ontario gets coughs because it was citied as having the highest incidence of the "instant fencing master" syndrome.

While there is no media drive the CFF will require certification lest the students cannot participate. And while it may not stop unqaulified people from claiming their supposed coaching level parents will start to wonder why this "high level" coach is forbidden from having his/her students compete in *any* CFF competition at any level.

Also, I expect the CFF will maintain a database of qualified coaches across the country and make it available on the CFF website. Much like they do with the list of course conductors; http://www.fencing.ca/course_conductors_list.htm
This list is a little outdated. What's also funny to note is their are some amazing coaches on that list who are only qaulified to teach level 1 or 2 on some weapons. Whereas there are coaches certified to teach level 1 through 3 in all three weapons when their students can't even make a top 16 at a national event...

Again a good reason for the CBET system.

Originally Posted by kalivor

In fact, the CBET (Competency-Based) methodology, while an improvement (I seem to recall it required little more than showing up to receive your level 2 under the old NCCP program ... the initial stages of the new one are far more rigorous), is a change that's being made at the Sport Canada level, and trickling down into all sports in Canada.

As such, it is not the result of any of the CFF's concerns. A new system was required by Sport Canada.

To the CFF's credit Fencing is the first sport in Canada (even before hockey, gasp!) to implement the CBET program. And obviously the CFF's concerns resulted in the armband system which required some research into coaching/fencer certification in Europe. So it wasn't like they went into this blind. Rather, they are leading the whole of the country in terms of coaching development.

And yes, the NCCP system was somewhat weak. The CBET system required a week of my time from 9am to 5 or 6pm every day. Versus the old "show up on the weekend and write your theory".

Yet again, another reason for CBET replacing it.

[Twinkletoes]

They kinda remind me of boy scout badges of achievement.. which
is not a giant plus for me. I just don't see myself sitting at home sewing these little things on...

On the plus side, it surely motivates some kids to move up to the next one.
Dangling the carrot is proven effective in that regard.


But most good fencers know the 411 on the competition, through Tourneys and of course by reading the rankings. I don't think the fans give much of a toss about who's wearing what spangle on their jacket.

But then, I'm a modest bloke.

cheers,

Toes

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by CheekyCanuck

When I was young, my father forced me to join Karate. I hated it. I guess I don't like the association.
We were charged for "testing" to gain a new belt. (As if it isn't expensive enough)
The higher belts picked on the lower belts.
I also guess I'm more of a traditionalist. I don't think of a fencing master as a whatever degree black band. I also think that it is more arbitrary than ratings, not that I'm obsessed.

What does it matter? When you guy come to the US of A you are just white belts.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

What does it matter? When you guy come to the US of A you are just white belts.

And vice-versa. You have to build ratings in both countries if you want to fence in both countries. It is easier to build a rating in the US than Canada.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by SJB

Yes. Even with a yellow/orange armband your students are allowed to compete. At any competition anywhere in the country.

Well, currently you don't need any armband to compete at any competition, anywhere in the country. I've been hearing things such as requiring green or blue to compete at Nationals.

Ontario's program for the Canada Winter Games team certainly indicates that fencers are expected to have an Orange armband already, and acquire a Green armband prior to the games in 2007.

Thus, no armbands are currently required, and at least *some* are considering higher level armbands as being requirements at some competitions.

Not exactly. It isn't the *other* coaches who determine what armbands but rather the other coaches who determine what armbands you can give your students. Ie. When I did my exam the examination board was Manuel Belmonte, Leslie Palmai and Claude Seguin. I found it helpful to have feedback from multiple sources and different viewpoints.

Re-reading the program, you're *slightly* right. The green and blue require an examination by two coaches, one of whom does not directly coach the fencer.

Though they can both be from the same club (preferably not).

I don't know about the validity of your political situation as the board would most likely be two coaches and a CFF rep.

There is no requirement for a CFF rep. In fact, I'm not sure how having a CFF rep available at every green-level armband test in the country would even be possible, from a practical standpoint.

Like my examination above I think the variety of coaches would help, not hinder. Also, the armbands are a set of actions chained together and *never* change. Thus there is no "making the test as hard as you like" because the requirements are clearly detailed on the armband program.

For yellow and orange, there certainly is a difference. How good must the fundamentals be to earn a yellow armband? I'm very picky about the quality of my fencers' footwork, and how they stand in en garde -- but I've seen people with the patches on who I wouldn't pass based on their inability to stand in en garde or lunge anywhere approaching properly. What's acceptable as a beat?

The CBET system is nice, in that everybody who can give out the armbands will be able to teach the actions, but I can give a lesson in which performing simple actions is difficult, and one which guides the fencer towards success.

For the portions regarding the rules, I've seen written tests that were multiple choice (and fairly easy) and one which required students to come up with the answers themselves.

It's not standard.

However, I think some coaches in the country, ie. Canadian born/raised/never-fenced-outside-of-Canada, may be humbled by the exams when they find out they aren't the coach they thought they were.

I don't doubt it.

Your coach HAS to be certified in the armband system or you CANNOT even TAKE the exam.

I think you're mistaken here. There's nothing in the system, as it stands, to indicate that. In fact, you're not even required to have a coach.

You simply need to find a coach willing to give you the exam, or sign up to go to a camp, or somesuch. You will then have an opportunity to gain your armband.

As an example, I don't currently have my CBET foil certification, thanks to a tendency to schedule them when I can't go, and having had the organisers cancel the one that I *did* sign up for.

One of my fencers went to a camp, and came back with a yellow armband.

The concept behind the armband system is a national competancy based set of coaching standards. If a coach isn't certified his/her students cannot compete until their coach is certified and then they make begin taking their tests.

You're making up these rules ...

Competency of a foreign fencer is determined by the Directoire Technique during the competition. For example. American fencers in the top 32 of their national rankings are usually given a top 16/top 8 ranking in the intial rankings. European fencers with FIE standings are also placed accordingly.

I'm well aware of this. However, armbands aren't seeding devices, and flashing a USFA membership at a Canadian competition simply creates an easy way to work around the system: Simply get an American mailing address, and buy a USFA membership ... you don't even need a club affiliation. Then flash this membership at CFF competitions, and no armband needed!

If a foreign fencer moves to Canada and wants to participate the coach and the fencer can simply look at the armband program and decide what level the student should take the exam at. This is of course if the coach has not determined the fencer's level from lessons, bouting observation etc.



If you feel like working your way through the regional qualifiers, Div III ---> Div II ---> Div I NACS and the hundreds of people (and hundreds of US dollars) it will take you to do so, that is your perogative.

Um ... are you saying that only fencers on the National Points list in the U.S. will be allowed in Canadian competitions? Because it's possible to have a USFA membership, and not be able to qualify for Div I NACs.

Ontario gets coughs because it was citied as having the highest incidence of the "instant fencing master" syndrome.

Likely having something to do with having the highest population ...

While there is no media drive the CFF will require certification lest the students cannot participate. And while it may not stop unqaulified people from claiming their supposed coaching level parents will start to wonder why this "high level" coach is forbidden from having his/her students compete in *any* CFF competition at any level.

As opposed to wondering why his/her students look out of place at fencing competitions, and constantly finish last?

These so-called fencing masters don't set up shop in the middle of Toronto, they set up shop in places without fencing. I also have my doubts that they tend to send their students to CFF competitions.

Also, I expect the CFF will maintain a database of qualified coaches across the country and make it available on the CFF website. Much like they do with the list of course conductors; http://www.fencing.ca/course_conductors_list.htm

You realise that, under the old system, there's a database out there with the names of all qualified coaches, and to what level they're qualified for.

This list is a little outdated.

Yes, and it's not the CBET list, which would have something like four or five qualified course conductors ...

What's also funny to note is their are some amazing coaches on that list who are only qaulified to teach level 1 or 2 on some weapons. Whereas there are coaches certified to teach level 1 through 3 in all three weapons when their students can't even make a top 16 at a national event...

Again a good reason for the CBET system.

?

Teaching coaching is different from teaching fencing. There are also coaches on there who can teach levels 2 and 3, but not 1. Also, some coaches probably decided that becoming a course conductor wasn't for them.

To the CFF's credit Fencing is the first sport in Canada (even before hockey, gasp!) to implement the CBET program. And obviously the CFF's concerns resulted in the armband system which required some research into coaching/fencer certification in Europe. So it wasn't like they went into this blind. Rather, they are leading the whole of the country in terms of coaching development.

Again ... what?

http://www.coach.ca/e/nccp/competenc...king/index.htm
http://www.coach.ca/e/nccp/competenc...ng/bysport.htm

Our system has not been signed off on, yet. Technically, nobody is "qualified" to hand out armbands, because Sport Canada found part of our course to be wanting.

There are many other sports which are at approximately the same stage of program development, or even a bit further.

Fencing vs. Hockey:

Athlete and Coach development models: Finished for both sports.
Community sport: Introduction, Development and High Performance: Only introduction is in progress for fencing. Hockey is in progress for all three levels.

Fencing doesn't even have conditional approval for its program at any point.

And yes, the NCCP system was somewhat weak. The CBET system required a week of my time from 9am to 5 or 6pm every day. Versus the old "show up on the weekend and write your theory".

Yet again, another reason for CBET replacing it.

I completely agree that CBET is better, don't get me wrong. When I first got my NCCP certification, I was 14 or 15, hadn't been fencing long, and was too shy to do anything in front of the entire group -- meaning that I only got my level one, and not my level two.

I didn't deserve to get it, at the time.

I think the armband program is an excellent idea, as it gets kids to strive towards skill development, rather than competitive results which rarely correspond to skill level at low-level youth competitions (where the poor quality of the fencing is only matched by the poor quality of the refereeing).

And I think it's good that a second coach should be involved with the armband examinations at higher levels.

However, I don't think that this will make great coaches want to go out and become certified to be course conductors at high levels, or stop people from going to towns without any fencing, and claiming to be fencing masters.