Poule Problem

[Zelda]

Hi everyone
We just had our National championships and I was on the wrong end a major stuff up. I am just curious as to what should have been done.

Someone in our poule wasnt actually there. They were accidently knocked off at roll call, the mistake was not noticed when the poules were made and and ref did roll call at the strip. It wasnt noticed until the missing persons first bout (against ME!). We then just fenced the poule as if the person was not there. The DT was very apologetic but was there anything else that should have been done?

This of course stuffed up everyones rankings as we were the small poule anyway (6, all the rest were 7). I ended up being in the low 30's when if things had gone right I hopefully should have been in the 20's.

[Cyranox11]

Hi Zelda
As far as I know, once the poules have been started you cannot redo them (ie if the first bout has been started in any of the pools), the rest must remain as published and be fenced accordingly. But I may be wrong on this...

If a person is not present when s/he is called to fence their poule bouts the person is black carded (after all the necessary calls to the piste).

The organiser should obviously not include people who are not present at the competition in the poule sheets, but I would say that the organiser PROBABLY did the best thing by allowing the competition to proceed: imagine if you were in another poule had won your first bout 5-4, the poules were scrapped and had to be redone, only for you to have to refence the same bout at a different stage and lose it 4-5: then you would have been really hacked off, no?

Regards
DJ

[Gav]

If someone scratches, for whatever reason, then you cross them off (draw a line through their results) and everyone misses out on the indicators they could have gained. It's a pain in the rear, but it does happen.

[esskreemr]

Yeah, you got screwed because they didn't follow checkin procedures properly. Unfortunately, there is not much you can do about it. Cross the fencer off, and proceed as a 5 person pool.

This wasn't a nationals, but I fenced a comp. We completed a pool, signed the bout sheets. One of the fencers dropped out, after everybody had signed, including him. His results were stricken and I lost a tabulated victory which seeded me a good 5 places lower than I would have been.

Not much you can do about it...

[downunder]

the problem was that during the official roll call the person was mistakenly highlighted, and an asterix placed next to them to notify the mistake.

When the list of present/absent was provided to the results management people, the asterix wasn't queried, and poules were drawn up with them included.

Its was given the same treatment at the worlds, when poules are drawn up the previous day - if someone is not present then they are scratched.

Not meaning to be rude Z... but it was the best we could do.

[Gav]

Well, you could have recalled the poules ...

I know, I know, I know - that would have been difficult.

[oso97]

Yeah, you got screwed because they didn't follow checkin procedures properly. Unfortunately, there is not much you can do about it. Cross the fencer off, and proceed as a 5 person pool.

This wasn't a nationals, but I fenced a comp. We completed a pool, signed the bout sheets. One of the fencers dropped out, after everybody had signed, including him. His results were stricken and I lost a tabulated victory which seeded me a good 5 places lower than I would have been.

Not much you can do about it...

THIS is incorrect proceedure. There are specific rules for what to do when a person drops and it is different depending upon before the pool, during the pool, or after the pool.

Look 'em up.

[randomsabreur]

I don't see why the fencers in a given poule should be penalised for an error at check in. What was wrong with a nice big fat line ruled through the name, or the comment "Wrong, not here" written next to the name. At the worlds, you would hope that it is a fair assumption that all of the fencers will appear, given the heavy fines the FIE will impose if people don't turn up. Same goes for GP A-Grades.

Yes, it is annoying if you have beaten someone for the first time and then the poules are rescinded, but what if it had been the other way around. Someone who had been properly checked in was not included in the poules (and a present list had not been posted) or if the seedings were completely wrong.

[esskreemr]

THIS is incorrect proceedure. There are specific rules for what to do when a person drops and it is different depending upon before the pool, during the pool, or after the pool.

Look 'em up.

We contested it. The bout committee disagreed with us.

[KD5MDK]

Isn't there be something in the Rulebook about "Bout Comittee may ignore any of these rules if it makes their job easier..."?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

what would you do in a situation like that? I'm not saying that the actions of the BC were happy actions by any mean, but I cant think of anything different to do.

[acaba]

Rules say:

Withdrawal
o.20 A fencer who withdraws, or who is excluded, is scratched from the
pool, and his results are annulled as if he had not taken part.

So when the fencer did not show up to the pool, you just fence with one fewer fencers. Sounds like the bout committee got it right.

Aaron

[Zelda]

I'm not saying the bout committee didnt.... I guess I am just frustrated and annoyed. :-)

[rcmatthews]

Well, for the sake of argument, it does say his results, not those of the other fencers. So could this be interpreted to mean that the results of the other fencers in the pool stand? It's almost like we need a Supreme Court of fencing.

[veeco]

There are 2 parties at fault here:

1- The BC for not doing roll call correctly and not make the pools correctly according to people who were scratched.
2- The referee for your pool for starting a pool when he wasn't sure all the fencers were there (because at that point it would have been possible to actually recall the pools and make a new batch quickly, without having to redo a lot of matches)

[oso97]

My mistake, I misread the original statement. I for some reason read it as the fencer had withdrawn AFTER the completion of pools, in which case you would apply:

o.25 When, for whatever reason, a fencer cannot fence, or cannot complete his bout, his opponent is declared winner of that bout. A fencer who withdraws does not lose his place in the overall classification of the competition.

Sorry, my mistake. Fault is on the DT and the referee in this case though.