Width of footwork

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Previously, I've been told to keep my feet under my body, no more than should width apart. However, alot of the top epeeists seem to fence in a slightly wider stance. Thoughts?

[RITFencing]

From what I understand, having feet closer together allows for a higher top speed, and having them further apart allows for more sudden movement and direction changes. It would explain why wider stances are more common in epee than foil or sabre.

[Sciurus-Rex]

However, alot of the top epeeists seem to fence in a slightly wider stance.

And a lot do not. Sports scientists are still trying to capture and define the ellusive "a lot" code. Very tricky; it keeps changing size.

[RITFencing]

Do either of you have any WC dvds? It might be interesting to see en garde width in the different weapons at elite level competition.

[JEC]

I have several videos of olympics, world championships, and other GP competitions for all six categories. Epee tends to have a larger stance than foil or saber. However, most epee fencers I see have at least a portion of their feet under their body except at lunging or in a fleche. Many epee fencers also move bouncing in small increments.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Lacking a visual coding skill here, I'll try something that might help visualize what happens when your feet are too far apart...

If you imagine some magical little markers along your attack line, glowing on the floor under your feet. The zero marker is directly under your crotch, presumably halfway between your lead and trailing feet, like this:

-9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9

Now imagine that your feet, in the standard en guarde position, are at points +/-4, and that if you really stretch your abilities, you can probably move your footsies as far as points +/-9 in one quick action.

-M -8 -7 -6 -5 -X -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +X +5 +6 +7 +8 +M

You've got a pretty good range of movement, eh? After all, you can stop at +/-5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 at any particular moment. Gives a lot of options. ... But if you start your position spread out to, say, points +/-6 or 7, you've already cut down your potential. Sure, your center of gravity is lower and it's less likely to reverberate back and forth with sudden changes in direction (grow some core muscles!); but you've also lost some ability to make those sudden changes.

[Sciurus-Rex]

IF epeeists are able to get away with a wider stance in general, it's only because their game involves smaller changes of distance because of available target area and lack of right-of-way conventions. Smaller shifts get the job done.

But it still takes training and skill to pull it off successfully.

[RITFencing]

That's why you have to find the so called sweet spot for foot position. You also get very bad problems bringing them too far in. Note that in the initial post, DFP said that high level epeeists he watched use a "slightly wider" stance. Not something four times the width of their shoulders.

[keith]

IT DOESN'T MATTER

...what matters is how you control distance not whether your feet are 1 or 1.25 shoulder widths apart.

ALthough I hear there is a secret german formula that takes into account shoulder width, height, footsize and libido to determine exactly how far apart any given epeeist should keep their feet.

Strangely the number is always larger for women than men

[RITFencing]

Actually, depending on how you like to control the distance, width does matter.

[keith]

Actually, depending on how you like to control the distance, width does matter.

as does your hand position and whether you balance on the balls of your feet - heel on or off the floor? - etc etc

Any of the things that is used to control distance is so related to all the others that any kind of statement that such and such a 'single thing' is essential is nonsense.

I'd spend more time on distance drills.......

[edew]

Kolobkov has an almost half-lunge position for his leg position. Most french epeeists seem to also have a wide stance.

I try to get all my fencers to have a wide stance. I use a wide stance. Whenever I'm in trouble in a bout and can't seem to do things right, I tell myself, "widen the stance." If my stance is already wide, I tell myself, "Just give up now. Save your energy for the drinking afterwards."

Most top fencers do have a wide stance.

[JEC]

... Strangely the number is always larger for women than men

That's because we are satisfied easily.

[dukeofdoom]

More important than the distance between the feet is the ability to advance or retreat in small increments. It is far easier to take long (and thus slow and imprecise) steps than to make small, quick actions. It's a lot easier to increase the length of one's advance than to shorten it. When excited most fencers develop a longer and predictable pace. Epee is a game of centimeters, so disciplined footwork is vital.

[RITFencing]

This is a bit off topic, but something I've been curious about. What do people do with the back leg? Do you have a sprinter's en garde with the knee in and the toe more forward or a more classical one with the knee out and the foot perpendicular to your front foot? Peronsally, since an ankle injury at Duel in the Desert, I can't keep a classical en garde without pain in the ankle, but a sprinter's stance has worked out quite well for me.

[RITFencing]

as does your hand position and whether you balance on the balls of your feet - heel on or off the floor? - etc etc

Any of the things that is used to control distance is so related to all the others that any kind of statement that such and such a 'single thing' is essential is nonsense.

I'd spend more time on distance drills.......

There are many things important in controlling distance, true. However, that does not mean that they can be ignored individually.

Also, no one said that a single thing was essential, any moreso that all the other things involved; we're merely discussing the pros and cons of one factor.

[RITFencing]

More important than the distance between the feet is the ability to advance or retreat in small increments. It is far easier to take long (and thus slow and imprecise) steps than to make small, quick actions. It's a lot easier to increase the length of one's advance than to shorten it. When excited most fencers develop a longer and predictable pace. Epee is a game of centimeters, so disciplined footwork is vital.

I completely agree that being able to take small steps is a vital part of epee, but being able to make small, quick, clean motions and (very importantly) change directions with them can be influenced by the position of one's feet while fencing.

[keith]

There are many things important in controlling distance, true. However, that does not mean that they can be ignored individually.

Footwork is a means to an end..... now there are good reasons why a wide stance can have advantages;

-it lends itself to smaller foot movements and a finer control of distance.

-assuming sufficient leg/core strength it allows the alternation of the flech and lunge (and the surprise of the fleche).

Also, no one said that a single thing was essential, any moreso that all the other things involved; we're merely discussing the pros and cons of one factor.

but as you yourself said, the running stance works - and not just for you...... means to an end, it's just a means to an end.

[RITFencing]

Footwork is a means to an end..... now there are good reasons why a wide stance can have advantages;

-it lends itself to smaller foot movements and a finer control of distance.

-assuming sufficient leg/core strength it allows the alternation of the flech and lunge (and the surprise of the fleche).



but as you yourself said, the running stance works - and not just for you...... means to an end, it's just a means to an end.

I completely agree with everything there, especially that footwork, like bladework, tactics, etc is a means to an end, that end being good fencing. I'm curious as to what you think the cons are of a wider stance, as well as a runner's en garde?

[keith]

I completely agree with everything there, especially that footwork, like bladework, tactics, etc is a means to an end, that end being good fencing. I'm curious as to what you think the cons are of a wider stance, as well as a runner's en garde?

so a runner's on guarde;

- good for the fleche (and the false fleche)

- handy for leaning (in or out) to hit or evade

- allows rapid retreats.

the downsides are all the flipsides of the pluses.

In a wide engarde you get a mobile platform but the speed you can move at is totally dependent on your foot speed - take a wide en garde and try to take a big step, its tricky - so if your footwork isn't up to snuff you are likely to get caught flat footed. Also its bloody hard work (especially as one gets older, sigh) compared to a more upright position.

The killer with an upright stance is not controlling your feet; you must force yourself to keep the movements small, only allow yourself big steps at the 'oh **** I need to get out of here' moments. Also you can get dependent on swaying as a way of avoiding actions - step back/lean back - once an opponent spots this they will either catch you with deeper actions so you can't sway away anymore or simply wait for you to regather your balance, and swing forward onto their point.