Remise?

[firebrand]

In a foil bout last Saturday I lunged and scored a point, but after an unsuccessful parry, or a tap to take away my right of attack. Then he hit me and was given the point. Is that correct, a "remise" doesn't count?

[swordsen]

That is correct assumeing his riposte was immediate. and it seems the ref thought it was.

[keith]

In a foil bout last Saturday I lunged and scored a point, but after an unsuccessful parry, or a tap to take away my right of attack. Then he hit me and was given the point. Is that correct, a "remise" doesn't count?

...if this sort of thing offends your sense of justice you might want to switch to Epee.

[rcmatthews]

Well, if the parry was unsuccessful, then the remise is valid.

[KD5MDK]

Or the riposte is delayed sufficiently.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

Sounds like thinking that 'tapping the blade' doesn't count as a successful parry. Usually, and for the most part - it does.

[wbowman]

I call them "symbolic" parries. But yes, in foil they do count. I agree with the previous advice -- switch to epee. Parries have to really clear the line to be of any use.

[OROD]

In a foil bout last Saturday I lunged and scored a point, but after an unsuccessful parry, or a tap to take away my right of attack. Then he hit me and was given the point. Is that correct, a "remise" doesn't count?

The way you're phrasing this is very confusing... you say you "scored a point", but you really didnt score, right? He did an "unsuccessful parry", but aparently it was successful since he got the touch? You're asking whether your remise doesnt count, but if it was indeed a remise then you must have finished your initial attack at some point and hence given up your right-of-way.

So, if I'm understanding the action...

You attack.
Opponent does parry, reposte.
You remise.
Opponent gets touch for the reposte.

So, the director must have thought your parry was insufficient, doesnt matter if you thought it was only a "tap". If, however, you are correct that the parry attempt did not deflect your attack then, then it'd be your attack and his mal parre.


.

[rcmatthews]

I call them "symbolic" parries. But yes, in foil they do count. I agree with the previous advice -- switch to epee. Parries have to really clear the line to be of any use.

Yeah, better to just switch. I am quite sure that the ROW conventions of sabre and foil would be much too difficult for you to grasp.

[Black Jeebus]

Alright to add another view:

A (you): Attack No
B (not-you): Counter YES
A: Remise
Touch B!

I'm not sure but this was one of the actions that pop into my mind reading your post, and if that is it then yes Counter-attack beats Remise.

In this case the only thing B has to do to gain ROW is to begin his Counter before A begins his Remise. B would not have to parry at all in the afore-mentioned (sp?) action.

EDIT: Also upon further review your posts seems pretty clearly to be B's Parry-riposte, even though it may not have seemed like B did much more than tap your weapon.

And just to reiterate if you really find yourself incapable of accepting ROW then you have one option (epee ). I would suggest you just keep trying FOIL (FOIL! FOIL! YAAAAAAAY FOIL! ).

[Araznal]

Alright, I made this thread so there wouldn't be hundreds of threads on very specific questions anymore. For future questions, please use the ROW thread .

[Be_Like_Water]

In a foil bout last Saturday I lunged and scored a point, but after an unsuccessful parry, or a tap to take away my right of attack. Then he hit me and was given the point. Is that correct, a "remise" doesn't count?

Yes, this call is correct. Since he parried you, he claimed right of way. If his riposte lands, it is his touch. You remise would have counted had he missed his riposte completely; even if both of you "remised", you have right of way because remise of an attack gets priority over a remise of a riposte. That's a bit convoluted, but I hope it helps. :-)

[firebrand]

"In this case the only thing B has to do to gain ROW is to begin his Counter before A begins his Remise. B would not have to parry at all in the afore-mentioned (sp?) action.

EDIT: Also upon further review your posts seems pretty clearly to be B's Parry-riposte, even though it may not have seemed like B did much more than tap your weapon."

Thanks, that makes sense.

[jeff]

firebrand, please also consider that even a light parry might be enough to move the point from line. A 'tap' delivered at the right moment and to the foible of the attacking blade really can deviate the point from target, and therefore is a valid parry. The rules refer to "a mere grazing" to indicate a blade action that is not a parry - referees discretion, of course.

It was common to teach opposition parries that closed the line, and to then riposte along the closed line with continued blade contact so a remise in the same line remains blocked. Good from the CF point of view, and also to ensure 1-light ripostes. I'm not saying one is better than the other - each type of parry has its place - but this is a useful consequence of opposition parries.

[I_luv_saber]

I call them "symbolic" parries. But yes, in foil they do count. I agree with the previous advice -- switch to epee. Parries have to really clear the line to be of any use.

They count in saber as well. If you are the aggressor, usually ANY blade contact will be called as the defenders parry/beat. Unless it was extremely obvious the defender attempted a beat/counterattack and hit the base of your blade/guard. My experience anyways.

[rcmatthews]

They count in saber as well. If you are the aggressor, usually ANY blade contact will be called as the defenders parry/beat. Unless it was extremely obvious the defender attempted a beat/counterattack and hit the base of your blade/guard. My experience anyways.

Thats highly erroneous, I think. What about beats/prise de fer by the attacker?

[kalivor]

Alright, I made this thread so there wouldn't be hundreds of threads on very specific questions anymore. For future questions, please use the ROW thread .

Good luck.

The longer that thread is open, the more convoluted it becomes, with a wider variety of scenarios being discussed. This means that a new question is less likely to be answered, and less likely to be focused upon.

Face it: If people can't go back to old posts to find out how to wash a mask, are they likely to do so with their RoW threads? Most questions (new or old) will find their way into a new thread.

[KD5MDK]

Thats highly erroneous, I think. What about beats/prise de fer by the attacker?

Well, it does depend on the referee. Some favor them, others do not. I try to keep in mind when things are unclear you should favor the attacker.

[Mihail]

They count in saber as well. If you are the aggressor, usually ANY blade contact will be called as the defenders parry/beat. Unless it was extremely obvious the defender attempted a beat/counterattack and hit the base of your blade/guard. My experience anyways.

I don't think that's true at all. In sabre, "taps" are mostly waved away as "incidental" contact, or will be seen in favor of your opponent. You really have to take control of the blade in order to earn right of way. And, althought I'm out of my element here, I think it should be the same way in foil. In some cases, literally the same blade action can be called A's beat or B's parry. Again, I don't fence foil so I admit that's a very superficial observation.

[KD5MDK]

In a foil bout last Saturday I lunged and scored a point,

There is a flaw in this statement. In all weapons, in all circumstances, you do not score a point until the referee says so.