10-03-2005, 10:14 AM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,326
| Folists/sabreurs -- not living up to their potential?
Why aren't there more As and Bs in sabre and (particularly) foil? Compared with epee -- which shows a healthy amount of advancement among its practitioners -- the number of upper-level ratings achievements in those weapons is positively dismal.
Is it because the fencers attracted to those weapons are inherently incapable; the coaching isn't up to par; or that the weapons are too darned complicated for any but a few to master consistently? | 
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10-03-2005, 10:54 AM
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#2 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,364
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Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex Is it because the fencers attracted to those weapons are inherently incapable; the coaching isn't up to par; or that the weapons are too darned complicated for any but a few to master consistently? | It's probably because all our best athletes go into Epee.  | |
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10-03-2005, 11:05 AM
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#3 | | Scavenger
Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,656
| Framed properly, the question is: Why are there too many A's and B's in epee?
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10-03-2005, 11:30 AM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York City
Posts: 668
| I would posit that the level of epee in this country is generally pretty low. There has been a lot more development in sabre and foil, so it's a lot harder to achieve the competitive success necessary for an A or, I suppose, B.
This low level also speaks to the "randomness" in epee expressed in another thread. The lower the level of fencing, the more "random" it will be.
I would also add that epee is, in many ways, far more difficult to achieve a high level in than the other two weapons. | 
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10-03-2005, 12:09 PM
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#6 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,151
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Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex Why aren't there more As and Bs in sabre and (particularly) foil? Compared with epee -- which shows a healthy amount of advancement among its practitioners -- the number of upper-level ratings achievements in those weapons is positively dismal.
Is it because the fencers attracted to those weapons are inherently incapable; the coaching isn't up to par; or that the weapons are too darned complicated for any but a few to master consistently? | How about : The top fencers in those weapons are sufficiently better (and continually staying better) than most new upstarts, and the tournament setups are extremely stingy with ratings unless you can gather a dozen each of As, Bs and Cs. At which point breaking through them is hard enough anyway.
Also, why make the case "particularly" about foil when it is sabre that the ratings are most compressed in? | |
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10-03-2005, 12:39 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by Peach Framed properly, the question is: Why are there too many A's and B's in epee? | See, you're trying to turn this around to avoid discussing the failings of foil and sabre. That's disingenuous at best and cowardly at worst.
We're just considering that something is wrong with foil and sabre ratings. Why can't more of them stay in the A and B finals positions?
Very sad. | |
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10-03-2005, 12:42 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK why make the case "particularly" about foil when it is sabre that the ratings are most compressed in? | I only added the word "particularly" in parentheses because we can almost forgive the sabre community for their low numbers affecting the availability of As and Bs in tourneys. But there should be plenty of foilists making more letter-graded progress. | |
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10-03-2005, 12:54 PM
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#9 | | Din Älskling
Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somewhere inside your head. Or am I?
Posts: 4,196
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Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex See, you're trying to turn this around to avoid discussing the failings of foil and sabre. That's disingenuous at best and cowardly at worst.
We're just considering that something is wrong with foil and sabre ratings. Why can't more of them stay in the A and B finals positions?
Very sad. | Competitive ratings are relative to the fencing around you. The ratings are established to help seed tournaments so the best fencers don't get removed too early in the competition. They are not objective because they don't measure fencing skill or experience. The are a fallible measure of the competitive performance of the fencer. An A fencer a specific division may barely make it into the DEs in a more competitive division.
If we could get hold of the names and ratings of every member, we could compare their strengths relative to national or even international standings. I think the ratings strength issue would most likely become abundantly clear.
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10-03-2005, 01:44 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jyväskylä
Posts: 3,876
| Foil and Saber fencers don't attend enough competitions.
And they routinely submit themselves to shoddy officiating. Most officials give the benefit of the doubt to the "better" fencer. This means that the new guy already has two strikes against them. They believe they are worse fencers, and feel that they haven't earned a higher place in the pecking order. Poor little guys.
We are still in a time where outside of a few well run competitions fencers can usually expect to do some self-officiating. This duty usually falls to the more experienced (better) fencers. They manipulate the situation subconsciously to ensure that the status quo is maintained.
I would go crazy too, if I had to deal with that nonsense.
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10-03-2005, 01:52 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bay Area
Posts: 4,639
| Isn't this exact discussion going on in at least two other threads?
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But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
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10-03-2005, 01:56 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jyväskylä
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Originally Posted by RITFencing Isn't this exact discussion going on in at least two other threads? | No, this is a constructive discussion where we try to help others.
The other threads, populated by too many frustrated foilists, are not addressing the same issues. We are trying to find out where they went wrong.
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10-03-2005, 01:59 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bay Area
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Originally Posted by Mr Epee No, this is a constructive discussion where we try to help others.
The other threads, populated by too many frustrated foilists, are not addressing the same issues. We are trying to find out where they went wrong. | Mea culpa. I know in one of the other threads, there was a list of ratings from the 2003 board of directors report, is there a more recent list available?
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
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10-03-2005, 02:03 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bay Area
Posts: 4,639
| Also, I find that at least in the areas I go to, epee tournaments tend to be both stronger and larger than foil and especially sabre, including larger events such as DitD and the Nick Toth at the air force academy. I think it's a combination of higher rated epeeists getting around more often and more people showing up to epee events, getting them over the 64 mark and into the A3/4 range. However, I fence out of Rochester, NY and Los Alamos, NM, and their respective areas. I don't know what other divisions/sections are like.
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"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
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10-03-2005, 02:09 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: FENCING!
Posts: 336
| Are you lonely?
Do you crave interaction with another human being, in a good or bad way?
Well look no more. Login to www.trollsareus.com.
Talk to trolls from your own area and arrange meeting. Yes that's right, you too can have troll like discussions with people pretending to care.
While on the site you can read such comments as:
"Men are such better fencers than women."
or
"Why does (insert name of weapon here) suck so badly?"
or
"Who was that troll I saw you with last night?"
ACT NOW!!! 
Ok. I know I'll get in trouble for this, but this was obviously a trolling, especially considering the other thread in which epee was discussed.
(This advertisement was in no way meant to denigrate or demean trolls in any way. Trolls are people too.) 
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Winning isn't everything, it just lets you fence longer.
Minute help entrusting which it knows it gives. -- Translated by Google from a Vietnamese post.
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10-03-2005, 02:11 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jyväskylä
Posts: 3,876
| See what foil does to people?
This makes it harder, not easier, to help you.
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F.Net Rule #1: E. L. E. (everybody love everybody)
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10-03-2005, 02:14 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bay Area
Posts: 4,639
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Originally Posted by CheekyCanuck Are you lonely?
Do you crave interaction with another human being, in a good or bad way?
Well look no more. Login to www.trollsareus.com.
Talk to trolls from your own area and arrange meeting. Yes that's right, you too can have troll like discussions with people pretending to care. | Man, they have a website for everything these days.
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
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10-03-2005, 02:16 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: FENCING!
Posts: 336
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Originally Posted by Mr Epee See what foil does to people?
This makes it harder, not easier, to help you. | I had a lesson in epee.
The results are obvious.  
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Winning isn't everything, it just lets you fence longer.
Minute help entrusting which it knows it gives. -- Translated by Google from a Vietnamese post.
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10-03-2005, 03:33 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,326
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Originally Posted by CheekyCanuck ...this was obviously a trolling, especially considering the other thread in which epee was discussed. | You aint quite right in the head, are ya, girl?
THOSE threads approached the question from the angle: What's wrong with epee for having so many As and Bs?
THIS thread is dedicated to the more legitimate question: What's wrong with foil/sabre for not having more As and Bs?
Two totally different perspectives. The first is jealousy; the latter is pity.
Sheesh. I thought it would be obvious.
Last edited by Sciurus-Rex; 10-03-2005 at 03:51 PM.
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10-03-2005, 03:47 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: FENCING!
Posts: 336
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Originally Posted by Sciurus-Rex You aint quite right in the head, are ya, boy?
THOSE threads approached the question from the angle: What's wrong with epee for having so many As and Bs?
THIS thread is dedicated to the more legitimate question: What's wrong with foil/sabre for not having more As and Bs?
Two totally different perspectives. The first is jealousy; the latter is pity.
Sheesh. I thought it would be obvious. | Hahaha... oh wait you're not joking are you... are you? 
If you walk like a troll, talk like a troll and reason like a troll...
And I'm not a boy I'm a woman (roar).
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Winning isn't everything, it just lets you fence longer.
Minute help entrusting which it knows it gives. -- Translated by Google from a Vietnamese post.
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