Epee: Is it truly out of control? - Data

[Mr Epee]

So what would you like to do with the National Point Standing?

I thought those are used to seed national competitions.

[esskreemr]

It probably happens in all weapons at any one time. Like a few have said before this post, it doesn't even take a good coach to jump start the ratings of a division. Anyone with a modicum of organizational ability can arrange a series of tournaments that start stuffing the ratings. In ANY weapon, not just epee, you get ratings inflations. Depending on how how isolated your division is, you could have As that have the competitive abilities of Cs or Ds in another division whose ratings trully reflect the competitive ability of its members. That's why they also use National Points to seed at tournaments. It helps mitigate the effect of a bunch of weak As, Bs, and Cs rising from the division level to get 'easy' high placed seeds in National tournaments.

It not a huge deal, but I think it's important that divisions (and coaches) try to make sure that their ratings are a closely representative of the National level as possible. Depending on the fencer's competitive aspirations, giving a 15 year old fencer whose been fencing for two years a B when they barely make a D is just hurting the fencer. Seems great at first, but they are then shut out of tournaments that fit their true classification at the regional and National level.

The rating system, for the most part is just fine, it has its own ways of evening out ratings inconsistencies, particularly the closer you get to the National level. It's just a way to seed at a competition. I think they could level it out even more by indicating in the rating the level of tournament at which it was attained. For instance, if you recieve your A at a national tournament in 2005 you would have a A05n, if you get an A at the regional level, you get an A05r, division level A05d. Then, at tournaments, you seed the A05n first, A05r second, and the A05d third. Then you move on to the Bs. Such a rating system is probably unneccessary, but the relative precursory strength of the fencer's rating could be determined at a single glance.

[Sciurus-Rex]

It's also importan to turn the assumption around and ask, why aren't more foilists/sabreurs earning As and Bs? Epee might merely be progressing as it should, while the other two weapons are lagging.

[ReverseLunge]

I think you forgot to define control.

This would be required to demonstrate that something is out of control.

http://media.exbyte.net/media/videos...5f53362d73.wmv

[JoseBagg]

It is not out of control. That's just the nature of Epee. There is just a lot of randomness. I have seen a U beat an A and it was the U's 2nd tourny. All he did was close his eyes and counter. 15-13. Something like that could never happen in foil or saber. If you ever look at the results of an Epee tourny is often looks like this:

#1 B Rated fencer
#2 A Rated
#3 Unrated
#4 A Rated
#5 C Rated
#6 D rated
#7 A rated
#8 Unrated

Something like that should never happen if the A was deserving of an A

[Mr Epee]

What does it mean to deserve an "A" ?

[shlepzig]

This reminds me somewhat of the Mr Epee (I think) thread that was started regarding womens fencing and tennis and all that jazz. That the top level matches from year to year were won by a small percentage of "regular suspects"

This seems like it would be a good addition to discussion, especially in regards to the repeatability of outcomes when epeeists meet. Have the rules changes over the years or equipment improvements changed the repeatability of the outcome for each of the weapons. Or are we seeing the same people at the top of the lists at the end of the day which would indicate that the repeatability of an A triumphing over less skilled opponenets is solid. Is it more repeatable in foil or sabre.

Just how long do you see those names at the top. Something else someone brought up in one thread or another that epee-ists seem to stay in the sport longer. How old are the competitors in each weapon and how old they they remain competitive at the top level. What is the longevity of an A in each group.

A's can be won in different groups, an A won in vets (for example) carries over to whatever other tournament you go to. What is the involvement of fencers from each group across different classes from Cadet and Youth to the Veteran titles. Perhaps this also contributes to more ratings availability than in other weapons.

Someone with a access to a lot of statistics could answer these questions, and probably discover some interesting correlations. Does the USFA have a giant filing cabinet frilled with all the results from all the USFA tournaments over the years. Someone who really wanted to know this sort of thing, and publish something interesting after harnessing this data.

Shlep.

"Get my intern, I have a project for him!"

[RITFencing]

I think many people pay too much attention to the rating system in general. To my mind, at least, it was designed to provide a quick and easy way of seeding competitors at tournaments. While it may not be the most accurate way, it is very simple, and provides a lot less work to tournament organizers, division officers and the USFA main office. The points list, which is a much more precise ranking system, is really only needed at the highest levels, when we need to see who the best fencers in the nation are to pick national teams and send people to WCs. That's my two cents, though, and I've never had the opportunity to discuss the matter with Mike Massik or any other USFA heavyweights.

[KD5MDK]

Drawbacks:
1) When you have enough As that there's 2 in each pool, deciding which go in which pool could be important.

2) When there's an upper crust of fencers who monopolize the top 8 results and prevent other fencers from earning Ds and Cs, which distorts pools as well.

[RITFencing]

Oh, there are definately drawbacks. I think, however, that the changes needed to fix them would cause more grief than they are worth. As I said, this is intended to be a rough system with ease of use being more important than accurate ratings.

[Mr Epee]

I think in Racquetball you give yourself a rating.

Your rating is dependant on the type of competitions you enter...

There are A, B, and C competitions.