Why does women's fencing suck?!?

[Be_Like_Water]

Epee fencing, specifically. When I watch men's events (at a higher level, such as div 1 or div 1A), I see very clearly tempo changes, movement, intricate "set-ups" for touches, etc. When I watch women's epee fencing of the same level, I see: bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce *stick out arm and thrust out hips* bounce, bounce, bounce *thrust out hips and stick out arm*. I'm not trying to mock the women, but the aforementioned actions are exactly what I see. Mind you, there are some exceptions (Maya Lawrence, for example). Why do women fence this way?? It seems like their footwork is extremely poor and they have very little ability to manipulate their opponents; thus, all of their touches are purely reactionary. They're taught "tricks" like bending over at the waist, but it seems like they are never taught how to actually fence. Does anyone have any ideas?


(PS--I am a female epee fencer)

[MyrddinsPrecint]

women are just totally inferior to men in every way imaginable.

.... and also, why they should be kept in the house to make their husbands sandwiches.

[Fencergrl]

Be_Like_Water... are you sure you're not Mr. Epee in drag???

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Be_Like_Water

Epee fencing, specifically. When I watch men's events (at a higher level, such as div 1 or div 1A), I see very clearly tempo changes, movement, intricate "set-ups" for touches, etc. When I watch women's epee fencing of the same level, I see: bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce *stick out arm and thrust out hips* bounce, bounce, bounce *thrust out hips and stick out arm*. I'm not trying to mock the women, but the aforementioned actions are exactly what I see. Mind you, there are some exceptions (Maya Lawrence, for example). Why do women fence this way?? It seems like their footwork is extremely poor and they have very little ability to manipulate their opponents; thus, all of their touches are purely reactionary. They're taught "tricks" like bending over at the waist, but it seems like they are never taught how to actually fence. Does anyone have any ideas?


(PS--I am a female epee fencer)

I agree 100% at the D and under level.

[Mr Epee]

I know the answer to this question... I have studied it deeply.

Oh, and MP, if you're not busy later, maybe we could get together.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'll take a stab at it.....

Womens are not naturally as strong/fast as men. The women who ARE faster and stronger, either because of genetics or a good strength training regimen, can rely on the "simpler" moves. At the higher levels of mens epee, everyone is in great shape, so they have to use more finesse/tempo/strategy.

Finesse, tempo, strategy, whatever you want to call it, is something to make up for not being able to just walk up and stab your opponent. In theory, if you were fast enough, you could attack fast enough that distance/timing would not matter, and your opponent could not react fast enough to defend. In reality, this doesn't happen unless the superior fencer vastly outclasses his opponent in terms of speed.

Thats my guess anyway.

[Be_Like_Water]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I agree 100% at the D and under level.

Well, unfortunately it extends to the French twins, the Hurleys, and many other "top tier" women. If you look at fencing photo's pictures of Courtney Hurley at any world cups, her arm is nicely extended--as is her butt. Even at high levels this seems to be happening, but why??

[Mr Epee]

Oh, schnap!

Yikes, could you do us a favor and edit that, so you aren't using individual names in your examples. Those people work pretty hard at their sport for you to sit here and snipe them on the internet.

I know and understand what you are talking about, but there are better ways to go about discussing the subject.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Be_Like_Water

Even at high levels this seems to be happening, but why??

I don't doubt it happens at higher levels, it's just that I haven't seen much women's epee fencing at those levels.

[fatfencer]

The funny thing is is that much of how I feel about epee in general comes from watching womens epee....the sport of watching paint drying is a faster, more ballistic sport.
I have to say that women's fencing on the whole does NOT suck, despite less speed(usually), often less precision etc etc. Why?

Because of knickers. Yes, Knickers, specifically WOMEN wearing them is the saving grace of womens fencing.

Knickers improve the physique of women, tightening, firming in all the right places. Even women who when normally dressed are marginal at best suddenly look rather yummy in a set of breeches.


As for mentioning names of epee fencers and slamming them for both their gender and their supposed inability to fence... well its just silly.

There are plenty in the mens division of epee who suck. Not only within the context of epee fencing but in terms of overall physical skill, technique, etc.

Epee is pretty boring regardless of gender. It takes two really HIGH level epeeists to make the waiting game visually appealing, live or on video.


I think theres a reason why Foil was the last event at Duel in the Desert.
Alex Wood and Cedric Anen really were head and shoulders above the other fencers that evening, IMHO. It was a real battle between those two, and I actually felt privileged to watch it. Any of the other events would have been anti climactic at best.

The rest of it really just made me want to drink heavily.... a sad state of affairs really. I was too broke to afford swilling the night away at the cash bar(quite pricey).


Fatfencer

[Be_Like_Water]

To clarify, I wasn't implying that the women I mentioned "suck", I was pointing out that they, while they have great point control and lots of experience and produce results at the highest levels, don't use distance and timing manipulation and sometimes rely on "tricks". I'm not saying one way is "superior" to another; I'm simply questioning why women's epee fencing is, as fat fencer put it, more boring than watching paint dry (not dynamic, reactionary, etc.) Yes, I realize many men do the same things, but from my experience, it's more prevalent in women's fencing. I used those people as an example against the "D and under" idea. It was certainly NOT an attack on any individual fencer, but more a jocular questioning of the inherent gender differences in fencing. No offense intended whatsoever.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Be_Like_Water

To clarify, I wasn't implying that the women I mentioned "suck", I was pointing out that they, while they have great point control and lots of experience and produce results at the highest levels, don't use distance and timing manipulation and sometimes rely on "tricks". I'm not saying one way is "superior" to another; I'm simply questioning why women's epee fencing is, as fat fencer put it, more boring than watching paint dry (not dynamic, reactionary, etc.) Yes, I realize many men do the same things, but from my experience, it's more prevalent in women's fencing. I used those people as an example against the "D and under" idea. It was certainly NOT an attack on any individual fencer, but more a jocular questioning of the inherent gender differences in fencing. No offense intended whatsoever.

Quit sucking up. Everyone knows that womens fencing, especially epee, isnt as cerebral compared to mens epee fencing. Its not that big a deal. Its just somehow "taboo and sexist" to tell the truth about it.

[Taomagicdragon]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Quit sucking up. Everyone knows that womens fencing, especially epee, isnt as cerebral compared to mens epee fencing. Its not that big a deal. Its just somehow "taboo and sexist" to tell the truth about it.

Do clarify hehe. I find from what I watch Women's foil tends to better technique wise than men. Also, at d and under, it is highly evident from what I have directed (both high school and USFA).

DFP, i think you should comapre women's epee to men's epee, not women fencing to men's epee. Just looks off from a reading POV

[BoutAfrica]

Firstly, womans Epee is without a doubt the Most boring event in Fencing and I think we all agree on this.
Secondly Womans Fencing is different to mens fencing. Foil and Sabre included. I personally prefer womans Sabre to mens because i can actually see whats going on. Before the timing changes, mens foil was a totally different game to womans, even at the highest level.

The average age of womans fencing, epee in particular, is lower than mens. mainly because they tend to have kids and those that dont are lesbian .

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by BoutAfrica

Firstly, womans Epee is without a doubt the Most boring event in Fencing and I think we all agree on this.

I should think we don't.

The average age of womans fencing, epee in particular, is lower than mens. mainly because they tend to have kids and those that dont are lesbian.

[Fencergrl]

This month on F-Net is attacking women athletes. Next month we'll go after visable minorities....

[BoutAfrica]

I was'nt attacking woman! What I said actually came largly from a conversation i had with an Olympian woman Epeeist.

And frankly I do think that womans Epee is the most Boring. Even female epee fencers find it boring to watch. Honestly it is at the bottom of my list.

I there was a thread a while ago on Whether woman should be allowed to fence in mens events a while ago. Similar reasons i guess.

[annacattiva]

Just curious... Be_Like_Water, what's your fencing like?

[Be_Like_Water]

Originally Posted by annacattiva

Just curious... Be_Like_Water, what's your fencing like?

My coach is a male who was an extremely high level epeeist, so essentially he is teaching me to fence like he did but with my own style. I have been taught to fence more like a man, ie, dynamic tempo changes, lots of footwork, manipulating my opponent, understanding tactics and distance well, etc. I do a lot of practicing how to move well because I think it's crucial to "high level" fencing. That's why I raised the question; women fence "like women" (epee) not because they physically can't fence any other way, but because they are taught to fence that way.

[Mr Epee]

When people ask me what is wrong with women's sports, I will direct them immediately to this thread. Come on girls, get it together.

Originally Posted by BeLikeWater

My coach is a male who was an extremely high level epeeist, so essentially he is teaching me to fence like he did but with my own style etc, etc...

Sounds like you have a crush on your coach, this also is an issue in women's sports.

It's time for you to quit acting like a diva.