10-03-2005, 06:33 PM
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#81 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Carolina über Alles
Posts: 2,608
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Originally Posted by Beeblebrox Your average placment theory is pointless. Your numbers fail to consider that in the tournament were Male: 2A, 2B, 4C, 3D fencers and for Female 1B and 2D fencers. The female fencer finishing 5th, ahead of 1A and 2B (all male) fencers and even the placement of the 2D fencers contradicts your hypothesis even more. | Your theory fails because you're not mentioning who the women beat to get where they needed to be. If memory serves me right, at that particular tournament the B (M) got beaten by the A (M) who got beaten by another male. So although women may have finished ahead of them, there is no head to head proof that they were actually the superior fencers.
[/devil's advocate]
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10-03-2005, 07:40 PM
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#82 | | Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: california
Posts: 58
| The disparity in skill can be a result of marginalizing woman's effort. I dont feel it's an issue of a female not being able to perform at the same level as a man but maybe it has to do with the fact that coaches dont devote as much time towards them. Very few women are in the shape needed to compete at a higher level amongst men. Just becaise its rare doesn't mean it never happens though. In boxing , about a year ago , a man and a woman fought the first battle of the sexes. The woman won. It was a 6 round fight but she was a beast. She had to be like 7 % bodyfat and very well-conditioned. Plus boxing separates people by weight division so im thinking that evened it up alot. heh Aldo nadi, (considered to be one of the best fencers of all time) once said "as for competitive fencing,I recommend it only for the girl with steady nerves and unusual stamina" Maybe the reason why woman's sports
arnt as exciting as that of the males is because theyre not in the necessary condition to maintain a heightened pace. The strength of one's legs and overall endurance does affect footwork. If fencing were filled with nothing but overweight men I bet the overall skill of the sport would be of a lesser quality than it is today. | |
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10-03-2005, 07:52 PM
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#83 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Cougar Country
Posts: 9,008
| I must admit I had difficulty understanding your post due to the grammar and spelling. So please don't take offence if I have completely misunderstood your point.
It appears you are saying that most women are in bad physical condition compared to guys; therefore this affects their abilities.
I frankly find that hard to believe. I have not noticed a gender difference in fitness in any of the sports I play and have played.
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10-03-2005, 08:08 PM
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#84 | | Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: california
Posts: 58
| um I gave a boxing example. Females fighters arn't in the shape of their male counterparts and it does affect their overall skill. The female boxers that are in decent shape are the ones that are the champions(leila ali. kristy martin). They are the ones that fight like men. You could put kristy martin in a boxing ring with a man that weighs as much as her and she'd probably beat him. The fighters that arn't as conditioned are the ones that loose more often. I know my grammar isn't perfect.
Last edited by archon; 10-03-2005 at 08:20 PM.
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10-03-2005, 08:22 PM
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#85 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: MA
Posts: 7,520
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Originally Posted by archon The disparity in skill can be a result of marginalizing woman's effort. | Wrong. Women aren't as strong as men on average. Sexism doesn't factor into it.
You are correct in saying that with sufficient conditioning, women can be trained to beat men, even most men. But a man and a woman trained identically will not be equal in strength or speed, or fencing ability.
And what you're saying could be a factor. But I don't buy the theory as the reason women are not as good at fencing. | |
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10-03-2005, 08:43 PM
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#86 | | Member
Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: california
Posts: 58
| I know women arn't as strong as men on the average. The example I gave in the post was about a woman whose weight was identical to the man she was fighting. Her muscle-tone was so defined that you could see striations. I know fencing isn't boxing but if a woman can compete with a man in something as physical as pugilism than why can't she in fencing? The fight I'm refering to was on the news and at the time it was a very big thing in the world of boxing. I wasn't stating anything as fact. I just wanted to point out that woman have competed against men in very physical sports and have won. Maybe if more woman had 7% bodyfat and physiques like men then woman's Epee wouldn't "suck"(I'm not saying that it does but that was the assumption that started this whole thread). http://espn.go.com/boxing/news/1999/1019/122880.html
"Margaret McGregor dominated Loi Chow for four rounds. That was believed to be the first time a man fought a woman in a sanctioned boxing match."
Last edited by archon; 10-03-2005 at 08:59 PM.
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10-03-2005, 09:19 PM
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#87 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 161
| I finally understand why most of the guys on here are single. Seriously, I'd bet that if your girlfriend was a fencer and knew you posted on this board, that any of you would have posted half this stuff. It's quite infuriating to read this stuff on here- especially since I know that I and some other women fencers could probably give you a good run for your money if ever we fenced.
Be_like_Water, I would personally like to see how you fence. Seriously, I may think my fellow female competitors (locally at least) aren't as good as me or the men, but I don't start threads on the internet saying they suck, as you so kindly put it. If you fence like a "guy" and constantly whoop up on both men AND women, they maybe you can have a little slack for posting this, but if you fence like a "girl", not so much.
(just a side note, there needs to be a spell checker...  ) | |
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10-03-2005, 09:34 PM
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#88 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 161
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Originally Posted by mrbiggs Wrong. Women aren't as strong as men on average. Sexism doesn't factor into it.
You are correct in saying that with sufficient conditioning, women can be trained to beat men, even most men. But a man and a woman trained identically will not be equal in strength or speed, or fencing ability. | Wrong. As I am a women (duh) and D and I train equally as many men do (in fact as practically my entire club does), and I can say this, I am faster than almost any of them you can pick out and most other local male fencers (I would say national, but I have never fenced men's nationally, so I wouldn't know), including a handful of A fencers, several B fencers, C fencers, etc. My strength, I can say this much, I don't have too much of it, but thats why disengages and circular parries are my friends. Also, a truly good fencer should always be stronger than his opponent mentally, not purely pyhisically. That, however is something I don't expect you or several other foolish males ever be able to do. My fencing abilities. Hmmm. How can I put this. I fence guys and I don't lose severly. The majority of the bouts I lose to men (A and B rated) are 5-4ish or 5-3ish and I train practically the same as the other men in my club. So tell me this, why can I fence better (or equivallantly, to say the least) than them and consitantly place higher in tournaments than them? | |
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10-03-2005, 10:08 PM
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#89 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 268
| look, men and women are different, you can not compare them directly, How many american world champions are there? Are they male or Female? How many Americans have Olympic Gold Medals? Are they male of female? answer key below
(answer) all females
This means that in the US, women are stronger fencers than men | |
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10-03-2005, 11:35 PM
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#90 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Ypsilanti, Mi USA
Posts: 1,591
| I think you have to look at the coaching methodology.
In general at the lower levels I've noticed a pattern in developing actions on the blade but being very weak on devleoping counters to them.
Like most of the lower level fencers I've trained with never even heard of ceding/yielding parries or were taught how to deal proper with strong beats. .
I think this hurts guys fencing, but not as much as it hurts the women fencing against the guys at the low level who don't know what to do and buy into the we're losing because women can't outfence men theory instead of recognizing it as a training issue and use it as an opportunity to develop skills that can completely reverse the situation competitively.  | |
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10-03-2005, 11:46 PM
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#91 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenbelt, MD
Posts: 16
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Originally Posted by annacattiva Um. I hate to point it out, but it seems almost absurd to base your idea of women's fencing on a bunch of local E and under teenaged girls. I've also fenced a number of people (male and female) who just stand there and let me hit them but I wouldn't try to insist that this is somehow a "fencing style"; rather, it is a habit of beginning fencers which we all hope they will grow out of. And I think as far as coaching teenage girls goes, I'd probably try to stay as far away from it as possible. |
I wasn't attempting to generalize on all fencing everywhere in the world, but I found it interesting that my very limited experience at lower levels of fencing did bear some resemblance to what was being discussed. | |
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10-04-2005, 12:50 AM
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#92 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 858
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Originally Posted by jessicasimpson
(answer) all females
This means that in the US, women are stronger fencers than men
| against other females. yours is not the best argument in favor of the point, sorry.
to better make the point, I know female epeeists who I've seen beat high-ranking male epeeists. the higher levels are the higher levels, and if you're there then you've got skills. guile beats strength most of the time, anyway. they've mastered the ability to play against the particular opponent they're facing, and not just the kind of opponent they're used to.
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10-04-2005, 03:49 AM
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#93 | | Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 70
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Originally Posted by archon The disparity in skill can be a result of marginalizing woman's effort. I dont feel it's an issue of a female not being able to perform at the same level as a man but maybe it has to do with the fact that coaches dont devote as much time towards them. Very few women are in the shape needed to compete at a higher level amongst men. Just becaise its rare doesn't mean it never happens though. In boxing , about a year ago , a man and a woman fought the first battle of the sexes. The woman won. It was a 6 round fight but she was a beast. She had to be like 7 % bodyfat and very well-conditioned. Plus boxing separates people by weight division so im thinking that evened it up alot. heh Aldo nadi, (considered to be one of the best fencers of all time) once said "as for competitive fencing,I recommend it only for the girl with steady nerves and unusual stamina" Maybe the reason why woman's sports
arnt as exciting as that of the males is because theyre not in the necessary condition to maintain a heightened pace. The strength of one's legs and overall endurance does affect footwork. If fencing were filled with nothing but overweight men I bet the overall skill of the sport would be of a lesser quality than it is today. | Yes, I completely agree. While there are obvious physiological differences between men and women, they still typically perform the same way relative to their strength. Women's basketball still looks like basketball, perhaps without the slam dunks. Same for women's soccer. In these sports there seems to be less difference between the sexes. I think you hit the core issue--it's training. Maybe women are taken less seriously or coaches don't believe they can teach women to fence with dynamics of tempo or aggression. I've never seen females work on footwork or target work or take nearly as many lessons. You make an interesting point, thanks for your commentary.
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10-04-2005, 03:53 AM
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#94 | | Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 70
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Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson | It was a silly way for me to explain a counterattack in which you displace target area by bending over at the waist so that your torso is perpendicular to your lower body. From what I see, it is an indication of lack of footwork strength.
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10-04-2005, 03:59 AM
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#95 | | Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 70
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Originally Posted by Queen of Hearts Be_like_Water, I would personally like to see how you fence. Seriously, I may think my fellow female competitors (locally at least) aren't as good as me or the men, but I don't start threads on the internet saying they suck, as you so kindly put it. If you fence like a "guy" and constantly whoop up on both men AND women, they maybe you can have a little slack for posting this, but if you fence like a "girl", not so much. | I did address my fencing style in a previous post. Yes I do happen to fence "like a guy." Yes I do happen to win bouts against both female and male competitors. BUT nowhere did I say that I am better than any female or male. I also never stated that my female competitors are not as good as my male competitors. That matters extremely little. My entire purpose for posting was to find out why other people think female fencing is slower with less footwork use and less manipulation (why I think it "sucks"--"sucks" to fence in and "sucks" to watch, in my opinion).
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10-04-2005, 04:37 AM
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#96 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: greece
Posts: 3,362
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Originally Posted by Be_Like_Water Yes, I completely agree. While there are obvious physiological differences between men and women, they still typically perform the same way relative to their strength. Women's basketball still looks like basketball, perhaps without the slam dunks. Same for women's soccer. In these sports there seems to be less difference between the sexes. I think you hit the core issue--it's training. Maybe women are taken less seriously or coaches don't believe they can teach women to fence with dynamics of tempo or aggression. I've never seen females work on footwork or target work or take nearly as many lessons. You make an interesting point, thanks for your commentary. | The top women work as hard as any guy I've seen. They work on footwork, point work, blade work, lift weights, and take a lot of lessons. Don't fool yourself.
The physical differences are there, and they play a factor into why women fence the way they do. Don't ignore them.
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10-04-2005, 04:55 AM
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#97 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,088
| Hi! Quote: |
Originally Posted by jessicasimpson look, men and women are different, you can not compare them directly, How many american world champions are there? Are they male or Female? How many Americans have Olympic Gold Medals? Are they male of female? answer key below
(answer) all females
This means that in the US, women are stronger fencers than men | Wrong, for the same reason that I pointed out in post #68. Your reasoning skills remind me of Magma. 
When you write "men and women are different, you can not compare them directly" you claim just that. Then, when you go on to write "in the US, women are stronger fencers than men" you are doing a direct comparison. Thus, you are contracdicting yourself.
That said, a USA man has actually got a Olympic Gold medal, so you got your facts wrong also. Albertson Van So Post, Gold medal in the St. Lois games of 1904, Single stick fighting.
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson | |
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10-04-2005, 05:04 AM
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#98 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,088
| Hi! Quote: |
Originally Posted by annacattiva Agreed. However, in the context of this discussion (Why do women use less advanced techniques than men/Why is women's epee different than men's epee/Why does women's epee suck?) it is entirely irrelevant whether Any of us actually like or dislike watching it. That's another question. (Do you enjoy watching women's epee?) | For the record - I like looking at WE, and all the other 5 weapon/gender combinations. I have seen a few of Zilverzmurfen´s bouts, and her "pick the opponent´s hand and wrist" technique is quite something.
I personally have nothing against looking at low-scoring bouts. I have personally taken part in a bout that was 0-0 at full time (I won the scoring point), and a bout that was 1-1 at full time (I lost, no points during 1 minute extra time). I find it an extra spice to see two fencers trying to score, but both barely managing to defend themselves. As the time drags on, both know that the first point will be increasingly important, and their nerves really start to show. Nail-biting stuff! 
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson | |
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10-04-2005, 05:24 AM
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#99 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,088
| Hi! Quote: |
Originally Posted by Beeblebrox Your average placment theory is pointless. Your numbers fail to consider that in the tournament were Male: 2A, 2B, 4C, 3D fencers and for Female 1B and 2D fencers. The female fencer finishing 5th, ahead of 1A and 2B (all male) fencers and even the placement of the 2D fencers contradicts your hypothesis even more. |
Oh my god...
Where do I start... Beeblebrox - you should really read up on hypothesis testing, null hypothesis, statistical theory, and the like. A start: http://www.rsscse.org.uk/ts/bts/reeves/text.html http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/II_Proofs
The statistics part of the Wiki article is a quite good explanation for the layperson.
I did not advance a hypothesis of my own in that post - I simply stated that the numbers did not bear out your hypothesis of women being better fencers. That the numbers do not bear it out does not prove that men are better though - given those numbers, all the conclusions "men are better fencers than women", "men and women are equally good fencers", and "these number do not conclusively prove anything" are still left not-disproved. The second one is the the null hypothesis, BTW. Given the small amount of data, the 3rd one is the best one though, assuming that one chooses reasonable alpha-values.
(Why do I have to suffer people who have not done their homework in mathematical statistics, but still claim to know what a hypothesis is?  )
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson | |
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10-04-2005, 05:30 AM
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#100 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,088
| Hi! Quote: |
Originally Posted by archon um I gave a boxing example. Females fighters arn't in the shape of their male counterparts and it does affect their overall skill. The female boxers that are in decent shape are the ones that are the champions(leila ali. kristy martin). They are the ones that fight like men. You could put kristy martin in a boxing ring with a man that weighs as much as her and she'd probably beat him. The fighters that arn't as conditioned are the ones that loose more often. I know my grammar isn't perfect. | Still, bad comparison.
A more relevant comparison would be a bout between Kristy Martin and the male champ (I assume KM is a female champ) in her weight class. I doubt that such a fight would be in any way, shape, or form even close to evenly matched.
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson | |
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