CNN Special Section: Forces: U.S. & Coalition/Casualties

[esskreemr]

CNN has started a special section dedicated to those who have died in combat during the war with Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/ira...es/casualties/

There have been 2,109 coalition troop deaths, 1,914 Americans, 96 Britons, 13 Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 26 Italians, one Kazakh, one Latvian, 17 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and 18 Ukrainians in the war in Iraq as of September 25, 2005.

At least 14,362 U.S. troops have been wounded in action, according to the Pentagon. The Pentagon does not report the number of non-hostile wounded.

[oso97]

I can't wait to see which of the rednecks on the board chimes in saying that its "unpatriotic" to honor our fallen troops in this manner...

[Slim]

CNN has started a special section dedicated to those who have died in combat during the war with Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/ira...es/casualties/

If your reasons for posting this really are to pay respect to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice, bravo to you. But please realize you just dissed a bunch of folks who gave their lives in another theater of operations.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2004/oef.casualties/

Unfortunately, given your track record here, I think your motives for posting this are dubious at best. Had you refrained from need to quote the counts, I would have given you the benefit of the doubt.

Oso, sorry to make you wait so long.

[Gav]

If your reasons for posting this really are to pay respect to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice, bravo to you. But please realize you just dissed a bunch of folks who gave their lives in another theater of operations.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2004/oef.casualties/

Unfortunately, given your track record here, I think your motives for posting this are dubious at best. Had you refrained from need to quote the counts, I would have given you the benefit of the doubt.

Oso, sorry to make you wait so long.

I don't see Esskreemr making any statements about what he thinks of the numbers. I do see you presupposing and prejudging.

[Slim]

I don't see Esskreemr making any statements about what he thinks of the numbers. I do see you presupposing and prejudging.

Including the numbers here in addition to the link is purely for emotional effect. Based on some particularly flippant and juvenile remarks on the thread regarding the 9/11 crash into the Pentagon, I have no reason to believe Mr Esskreemr has any honorable intentions with this post. Its my opinion.

[ReverseLunge]

The loss of even 1 American life is way too much.

[Slim]

The loss of even 1 American life is way too much.

Interesting. Too much for what?

[ReverseLunge]

It's just my opinion that The US of A is the greatest country on this earth and the lives of it's citizens are worth more than those from other countries.

[Robert Smith]

It's just my opinion that The US of A is the greatest country on this earth and the lives of it's citizens are worth more than those from other countries.

Does that include trolls? Unfortunately, like the misplaced apostrophe, not an endangered species...

[ReverseLunge]

You are upset because you aren't American? Let me tell you something. We Americans are born right the first time and whatever we do is the will of God.

[Robert Smith]

To tell the truth, no; in fact, if there WAS a god, I'd thank him daily that I'm not american. It's not a culture I can find any reason to envy. This is close enough, thanks.

[ReverseLunge]

You just have no idea what it feels like to be from the US of A. We are the boss of this planet. Like it or not that's how it is. We only ask for what we can already take. Nobody says no to us and nobody get in our way.

[Gav]

Including the numbers here in addition to the link is purely for emotional effect. Based on some particularly flippant and juvenile remarks on the thread regarding the 9/11 crash into the Pentagon, I have no reason to believe Mr Esskreemr has any honorable intentions with this post. Its my opinion.

But not substansiated by fact. Ess' hasn't actually stated any stance regarding these numbers in this thread. Your presumption makes you look more than a little daft.

I/you/we can be against/for the whole Iraq escapade, but still mourn/hounour the dead involved. As I am against the idea (make that the ideal as well) of Iraq, so I think that their lives are being wasted to no good effect. But I can still honour the dead (they have paid the highest price) and hope that the rest will be pulled out sooner than later. There is no dishonour in rejecting the establishment's credo if you don't believe in it, or think that it's not doing your country any good. This says nothing about your attitude about the military. Coming from a long line of solidiers I can tell you that. And like my grandpappy said, "there is no honour in war."

Don't mistake opposition for anything more than it is; disagreeing with your point of view. So I'll pose you a couple of questions: if you had posted that link, with those numbers, what would we be supposed to think? Do you think that esskreemr would chime in and an agressive mildly insulting manner? How insulted would you have been if you had created this same thread, in this same manner, only to be attacked by some petty anonymous board member? Think about it and get back to me.

[Robert Smith]

You just have no idea what it feels like to be from the US of A. We are the boss of this planet. Like it or not that's how it is. We only ask for what we can already take. Nobody says no to us and nobody get in our way.

You see, you've fallen into the trap too. This "we" you talk about - are you a part of it? There's this idea, unique as far as I can see to america, that you're all part of some glorious whole. I watched part of the Amusing Race, Family edition tonight on the boob tube, and the reverence with which they treat that flag is truly mind-boggling. No other nation on earth has so much patriotic fervour, mostly because no other nation has it rammed so firmly or frequently down their throats.

I worked in London once with a girl from the US, who told me that every time she went home, she had to swear allegiance to that stupid flag. You get the same crap in school, so I believe. And you get Jerry Bruckheimer "producing" the war in Iraq. And you get crap like "Operation Freedom" and "Operation Just Cause", all telling you it's just, it's righteous, it's "in the name of freedom" or liberty or whatever some other scam artist has taught you to hold dear. Does it never strike you that you're being manipulated, or have you just been taught that people like me are decadent and cynical and anti-american? It's like ads for Lysol, anti-aging products, all the cheap tat that you have no need for but some faceless bastard wants to sell to you anyway - make you afraid of the enemy you can't see and can't understand, and say "don't worry, we'll protect you".

It's amazingly successful - to say to an entire nation, as one of your golden icons did, "Ask not what your country can do for you: Ask what you can do for your country." - and have them BUY it! Nah, think I'll stay here, safely north of the softwood curtain.

[ReverseLunge]

You see, you've fallen into the trap

I think you have. hehe

The US of A has the most money and the most firepower. What does that mean? It means we can do whatever we want. We have the power to take on every country in the world and win. You come from a country with no power.

[Craig]

I think you have. hehe

The US of A has the most money and the most firepower. What does that mean? It means we can do whatever we want. We have the power to take on every country in the world and win. You come from a country with no power.

Interesting claim on "most money". In fact, the Iraq war and all other government functions are being financed from abroad (that is what "deficit spending" is.) Luckily, the Chinese banks still see value in purchasing US treasury bonds.

[Epee_Pox]

The US Budget Deficit is paid for by government borrowing (the national debt). Which must be compared to the national assets for proper analysis.

As of Monday, the national debt was $7,922,079,988,192.98

$3,310,603,852,357.10 of that (42%) was loans to the government itself.

The remaining $4,611,476,135,835.88 is in outstanding Treasury Bills, Notes, Bonds, TIPS, United States Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series, plus some other instruments.

Only about 20% of the debt is held by individuals or entities outside the United States. The rest is all domestically owned.

So Craig's assertion isn't exactly accurate.

[Slim]

But not substansiated by fact. Ess' hasn't actually stated any stance regarding these numbers in this thread. Your presumption makes you look more than a little daft.

I/you/we can be against/for the whole Iraq escapade, but still mourn/hounour the dead involved. As I am against the idea (make that the ideal as well) of Iraq, so I think that their lives are being wasted to no good effect. But I can still honour the dead (they have paid the highest price) and hope that the rest will be pulled out sooner than later. There is no dishonour in rejecting the establishment's credo if you don't believe in it, or think that it's not doing your country any good. This says nothing about your attitude about the military. Coming from a long line of solidiers I can tell you that. And like my grandpappy said, "there is no honour in war."

Don't mistake opposition for anything more than it is; disagreeing with your point of view. So I'll pose you a couple of questions: if you had posted that link, with those numbers, what would we be supposed to think? Do you think that esskreemr would chime in and an agressive mildly insulting manner? How insulted would you have been if you had created this same thread, in this same manner, only to be attacked by some petty anonymous board member? Think about it and get back to me.

Perhaps to you it does. Which is ok. I suspect many of my other posts have biased you in this direction anyways.

I find the dishonor in the use of these brave people to try and score political points and push forth an agenda. That agenda being to discredit the current administration and do what ever it takes to "throw the bums out". They've done enough to discredit themselves without having to involve these dead soldiers in this way. It's the Vietnam era body count all over again. Purely for effect. The bigger the numbers, the better for their cause.

I'm not a big fan of what's happening over there either. But I find it completely reprehensible, for example, that a poor mother of a fallen soldier has been preyed upon and manipulated into being nothing more than a pawn by the likes of Jane Fonda and her peacenik hippie throwbacks. This is being orchestrated by same folks who were spewing the "Bush is an idiot", "Bush=Hitler" rhetoric even before 9/11 happened. The source of the same dribble Mr Ess and company loves to put forth. In my opinion, Mr Ess went a little over the line this time and needed to be called on it. Again, it's my opinion.

This woman's son would be completely disgusted and outraged by what his mother is now involved with. Her husband is and left her because of it. I really, really feel bad for her and her family. I hope her "handlers" are there to help her pick up the pieces when they have no more need for her. Somehow I doubt it.

The honorable thing to do, in my opinion, would be to leave these fallen soldiers and their families out of the moveon.org sponsored fight for "Regime Change".

Now, to answer your questions: I did post a link to the people who have been killed in Afghanistan. So, what do you think? What was my motivation? And I really care not about any insulting remarks or tone you or others may wish to use. I know my motivations. And I never would have started this thread in the first place.

[Gav]

Perhaps to you it does. Which is ok. I suspect many of my other posts have biased you in this direction anyways.

Biased me in what direction? What are you talking about?

I find the dishonor in the use of these brave people to try and score political points and push forth an agenda. That agenda being to discredit the current administration and do what ever it takes to "throw the bums out". They've done enough to discredit themselves without having to involve these dead soldiers in this way. It's the Vietnam era body count all over again. Purely for effect. The bigger the numbers, the better for their cause.

OK, so is it ok to use them for patriotic causes then? Is it only dishonest when it doesn't match your internal definition of honourable? when did Ess try and score points with this post. Show me the sentence, in this thread, where he said anything other than "Here are the numbers?"

I'm not a big fan of what's happening over there either.

Good.

But I find it completely reprehensible, for example, that a poor mother of a fallen soldier has been preyed upon and manipulated into being nothing more than a pawn by the likes of Jane Fonda and her peacenik hippie throwbacks. This is being orchestrated by same folks who were spewing the "Bush is an idiot", "Bush=Hitler" rhetoric even before 9/11 happened. The source of the same dribble Mr Ess and company loves to put forth. In my opinion, Mr Ess went a little over the line this time and needed to be called on it. Again, it's my opinion.

What are you on about? Who are you on about? And what does that have to do with what Ess posted?

This woman's son would be completely disgusted and outraged by what his mother is now involved with. Her husband is and left her because of it. I really, really feel bad for her and her family. I hope her "handlers" are there to help her pick up the pieces when they have no more need for her. Somehow I doubt it.

How do you know? He's dead? Do you have his spiritual telephone number? Who is this woman you are going on about and what does it have to do with the words that Ess typed up?

The honorable thing to do, in my opinion, would be to leave these fallen soldiers and their families out of the moveon.org sponsored fight for "Regime Change".

Again what are you going on about? Where in Ess's post is any political movement mentioned?

Now, to answer your questions: I did post a link to the people who have been killed in Afghanistan. So, what do you think? What was my motivation? And I really care not about any insulting remarks or tone you or others may wish to use. I know my motivations. And I never would have started this thread in the first place.

Why not? Why isn't the discussion of casualties allowed? Even my uncles, grandparents, great grandparents etc discussed what happened to them in situations that were extremely grim. They often talked about the potential of dying for their country and they didn't have a problem with people knowing what they did. They talked about the bad things that they had seen and done and were adamant that there was nothing honourabel about it. In their opinion hiding the deaths hid the truth of what they were doing.

When did I use an insulting tone?

Slim, you get a rep point if you can demonstrate in the post that started this thread the bit where Ess mentioned any political ideology.

[RebelFencer]

*sighs*
A) What gives you the right to presuppose what the grieving mother's dead son would feel in this situation? You have nothing to support this and are as incorrect in saying this as I would be saying that he would want the current administration hanged without any proper evidence.

B) So we can argue against what the government is doing, but not show them how many American lives this failed venture has and is still costing them? Casualties are a part of war, and by God if these people are dying over there I would hope SOMEONE is putting it in front of the public and government's face. It's easy to be pro-war or even worse, apathetic, when your team hasn't suffered any losses.